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Transcript: Satarize the System and Samourai Wallet with Frank Corva, Zack Shapiro, Jeremy Poley and the Bugle
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diff --git a/wiki/transcripts/satarize-the-system-and-samourai-wallet-with-frank-corva-zack-shapiro-jeremy-poley-and-the.md b/wiki/transcripts/satarize-the-system-and-samourai-wallet-with-frank-corva-zack-shapiro-jeremy-poley-and-the.md new file mode 100644 index 00000000..1a507831 @@ -0,0 +1,635 @@ +--- +title: "Transcript: Satarize the System and Samourai Wallet with Frank Corva, Zack Shapiro, Jeremy Poley and the Bugle" +type: transcript +episode: satarize-the-system-and-samourai-wallet-with-frank-corva-zack-shapiro-jeremy-poley-and-the +generated: true +date: 2025-05-17 +audio: "https://feeds.fountain.fm/R8scBF2Wiykm0YVldsHQ/items/V4ZhwEjue0FyixcV6Fk9/files/AUDIO---DEFAULT---3428fc60-6867-4e50-a682-8310b2aa0840.mp3" +duration: "1:36:18" +sources: + - raw/episodes/satarize-the-system-and-samourai-wallet-with-frank-corva-zack-shapiro-jeremy-poley-and-the/bundle.json +--- + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2">0:02</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2" data-t="2">Alrighty, folks. We are live.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-6" data-t="6">Let's see if it's pushing to all the socials. It looks like it should be should be posting the Zapdos stream.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-15" data-t="15">It's always interesting to see if the streaming works out. It is hard to do a live stream from a typewriter.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-22" data-t="22">Alright.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-23" data-t="23">We're we're live on Zap. Stream, but the stream is named incorrectly. It's named test. That's kind of annoying. This is not a test, folks. This is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-32" data-t="32">the real deal. We're live today with Zach Shapiro and Frank Korva,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-39">0:39</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-39" data-t="39">two fine folks that have been very involved</span> <span class="cue" id="t-42" data-t="42">with the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-43" data-t="43">samurai wallet,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-45" data-t="45">case. They are going to be participating</span> <span class="cue" id="t-48" data-t="48">in our event in Vegas.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-50" data-t="50">The satirize the system event is the premier event,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-55">0:55</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-55" data-t="55">to go to in Vegas. I personally think it's the only reason to be in Vegas.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-60" data-t="60">But</span> <span class="cue" id="t-62" data-t="62">I'm excited to have you guys here,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-65" data-t="65">talk about what's going on with the samurai wallet case</span> <span class="cue" id="t-68" data-t="68">right now. Right now,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-72" data-t="72">the folks that we pay taxes to to tell us where we can't smoke are</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-79">1:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-79" data-t="79">really screwing with these guys</span> <span class="cue" id="t-82" data-t="82">and they have some reasons</span> <span class="cue" id="t-85" data-t="85">why they're scorable with them, but they don't really seem like very legitimate reasons. So,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-91">1:31</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-91" data-t="91">yeah. Well, first of all,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-93" data-t="93">I I just wanted before we get into this, I wanna congratulate Frank.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-97" data-t="97">Frank just got his credentials. Do you wanna talk about that, Frank? This is a huge day. This is like this is I am experiencing</span> <span class="cue" id="t-104" data-t="104">incredible film. Alright. Yeah.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-107">1:47</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-107" data-t="107">Yeah. I'm here at, here in the train station or union station in DC.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-113" data-t="113">You know, it's it's an exciting day. We we we, we all love credentials in this space. We know how important credentials are. We know how much you guys appreciate them. So it's exciting to announce them. Yeah. We we value them. That's right.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-126" data-t="126">But, yeah, we have a we have a Big Pointer in the White House. So we have a Bitcoin Magazine got its hard pass to the White House today. They've been helping us out with soft passes to certain events,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-135" data-t="135">but I'll be, reporting from there more frequently now speaking with, members of the admin and cabinet</span> <span class="cue" id="t-141" data-t="141">in-depth.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-142" data-t="142">It's comparable similar to what I just did with, secretary Lutnick and,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-147">2:27</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-147" data-t="147">and and Bo Hines who has the longest title in the history of, government titles, maybe titles anywhere.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-153" data-t="153">But, yeah, exciting days. Here's to credentials.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-158">2:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-158" data-t="158">Are you are you excited to hang out with Caroline</span> <span class="cue" id="t-161" data-t="161">Lovett? She's pretty hot.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-165">2:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-165" data-t="165">She's a good looking lady.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-167" data-t="167">Yes. I've I've see I've seen her around the few times that I've been here.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-170" data-t="170">Excited to definitely maybe maybe smoke cigarettes with her. We'll we'll see. We'll see what happens.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-175">2:55</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-175" data-t="175">Is is David Bailey gonna allow her to go to the White House and call her retarded?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-179" data-t="179">Or let sorry. Let Shinobi go to the White House and call her retarded.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-184">3:04</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-184" data-t="184">Oh, didn't you guys just publish something about how Shinobi is sexist? He doesn't call women retarded. He only calls yeah. But</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-190">3:10</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-190" data-t="190">only if they're Republican.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-192">3:12</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-192" data-t="192">Okay. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Shinobi likes the lefties. He won't he won't call the the leftist woman retarded. That's right. Yeah.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-200">3:20</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-200" data-t="200">I mean, Shihtobe has long Shihtobe's all all long been all in on DI, so that's not,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-206">3:26</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-206" data-t="206">He has. He was he's like a hipster. He was into DI before they even called it DEI, I think.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-213">3:33</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-213" data-t="213">He was a first adopter. No. Mover.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-216">3:36</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-216" data-t="216">Got got into DEI before he got into Bitcoin.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-221">3:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-221" data-t="221">Now he's bringing, his DEI to the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-224" data-t="224">the mempool.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-226" data-t="226">He's he's polluted</span> <span class="cue" id="t-228" data-t="228">polluted it with DEI everywhere.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-231">3:51</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-231" data-t="231">Does the does the White House are you allowed to smoke in the White House? Do they have a smoking</span> <span class="cue" id="t-236" data-t="236">section or, like, a a a smoke pit on the property that you can, you can hang out with, talk to Bitcoin podcasts with, you know, White House members and employees?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-246">4:06</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-246" data-t="246">This is, I haven't seen it yet, but it's something worth bringing up if they don't have it. So I think, they seem pretty receptive to whatever we've suggested thus far. So I think we could probably get something like this accomplished if it if it doesn't exist</span> <span class="cue" id="t-258" data-t="258">already.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-259">4:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-259" data-t="259">Yeah. I think a lot of people have been concerned about RFK being a LARP and this kind of like his moment to prove himself in the Make America Healthy Again</span> <span class="cue" id="t-269" data-t="269">agenda.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-270" data-t="270">Will he</span> <span class="cue" id="t-272" data-t="272">promote smoking or not? Is he actually the real deal or is he just a LARP like</span> <span class="cue" id="t-279" data-t="279">Jack Crews? You know, he's been going around calling all these people out for being,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-284" data-t="284">kinda pretend make America healthy people.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-287">4:47</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-287" data-t="287">Would he have to recommend one, like, that we all smoke American spirits, like cigarettes that don't have any sort of,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-293" data-t="293">additives or anything like that?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-295">4:55</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-295" data-t="295">Well, I mean, I think a good one would be,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-298" data-t="298">repealing all the BS FDA</span> <span class="cue" id="t-301" data-t="301">requirements</span> <span class="cue" id="t-302" data-t="302">on what they put in cigarettes, but, I think just promoting</span> <span class="cue" id="t-306" data-t="306">the smoking of cigarettes in general would be good. A lot of people like to talk about the mental health</span> <span class="cue" id="t-312" data-t="312">crisis, but nobody really likes</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-314">5:14</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-314" data-t="314">to actually present any real</span> <span class="cue" id="t-317" data-t="317">solutions to it. And we all know that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-320" data-t="320">mental health issues would be completely eliminated,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-323" data-t="323">like, tomorrow in America if</span> <span class="cue" id="t-326" data-t="326">smoking was encouraged,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-328" data-t="328">read nine rand, listen to Bitcoin podcast.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-332">5:32</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-332" data-t="332">It's a it's a winning formula. It's worked it's worked worked for, at least you and I. I'm sure a lot of others would benefit out. A lot of others out there would benefit from it as well.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-342">5:42</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-342" data-t="342">Sounds like the formula for,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-344" data-t="344">Mike brought Kryptonite right there. You've got first, you've got RFK,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-349" data-t="349">starts as a prized</span> <span class="cue" id="t-352" data-t="352">democratic Brockian</span> <span class="cue" id="t-353" data-t="353">person,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-355" data-t="355">goes to the other side,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-357">5:57</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-357" data-t="357">pisses him off, and now you have him</span> <span class="cue" id="t-360" data-t="360">legalizing</span> <span class="cue" data-t="360">cigarettes,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-362" data-t="362">which Mike Brock still doesn't understand the health benefits</span> <span class="cue" id="t-366" data-t="366">of. I think that's just like a triple folded sandwich</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-369">6:09</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-369" data-t="369">right there. Oh, yeah.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-371">6:11</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-371" data-t="371">Luckily, I I think he also wants to legalize MDMA, which will help with the the overall mood.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-377">6:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-377" data-t="377">That that will definitely lift the vibes</span> <span class="cue" id="t-379" data-t="379">for sure. Now</span> <span class="cue" id="t-381" data-t="381">before before we get back into the samurai stuff, just for a little more context. So Frank is now he just got his White House credentials. He's gonna be there reporting,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-390" data-t="390">doing journalism</span> <span class="cue" id="t-391" data-t="391">from ground zero.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-393" data-t="393">And, Zach, you are</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-395">6:35</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-395" data-t="395">orange peeling the politicians.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-397" data-t="397">And</span> <span class="cue" id="t-398" data-t="398">I'm curious about that experience. What is what has it been like so far entering the Trump administration? Has it been receptive? And how are there enough politicians</span> <span class="cue" id="t-409" data-t="409">that haven't been orange filled by Dennis Porter already</span> <span class="cue" id="t-412" data-t="412">for to keep you busy? Or do you have or is this giving you more time for Bitcoin podcast?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-418">6:58</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-418" data-t="418">Look. I'm always appreciative of,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-421" data-t="421">Dennis Porter's,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-422" data-t="422">efforts at at giving me more time for for Bitcoin podcast. But, yeah, the look. BBI's main mission is,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-429" data-t="429">education</span> <span class="cue" data-t="429">in DC, and, you know, there's there's a big difference between being supportive and and being educated.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-435" data-t="435">And so, you know, in that in that respect,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-438">7:18</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-438" data-t="438">there are other Bitcoin policy groups that I think are are giving us more more work. And and so I don't think we're gonna run out of,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-445" data-t="445">politicians to to have to explain,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-447" data-t="447">Bitcoin and the nuances</span> <span class="cue" id="t-449" data-t="449">around noncustodial tools and good stuff like that too.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-453">7:33</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-453" data-t="453">What do you also what's it like when you fit when you thought you've educated an orange tool, the politician, and then you go on the timeline</span> <span class="cue" id="t-460" data-t="460">and you see that they're</span> <span class="cue" id="t-462" data-t="462">they're pumping meme coins or they're into crypto or calling it digital assets. You're like, oh, we just went over this yesterday.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-469" data-t="469">We just went over this, and you're already doing shit coins. Like, is that frustrating?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-473">7:53</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-473" data-t="473">I think everyone needs to to do that, and and I really applaud the, the the at least they're they're gonna speed run it. Right? If everyone's gonna come out of Bitcoin maximalist at the end, the fact that we've got a presidential</span> <span class="cue" id="t-484" data-t="484">meme coin and DeFi and,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-487" data-t="487">you know, I assume we're soon gonna tokenize,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-490" data-t="490">Middle Eastern jets. We're gonna get to the end result sooner that way.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-496">8:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-496" data-t="496">Interesting.</span> <span class="cue" data-t="496">Well, the, you know, the average age of these politicians you're probably working with in orange peeling is, like, 85.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-502" data-t="502">You know? So, like, what what's this process of orange peeling them look like? You have to go meet them at Comet Ping Pong</span> <span class="cue" id="t-509" data-t="509">and then, like, teach them how to use their iPhone</span> <span class="cue" id="t-512" data-t="512">and, like, how to how to download</span> <span class="cue" id="t-515" data-t="515">an app from the App Store? Do you have to get their, like, grandchildren involved? Or or what what's that process look like? Comet Comet pizzas is no longer a a safe space. So they're now mostly private dinner parties at at,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-529">8:49</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-529" data-t="529">John Podesta's house. And then,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-532" data-t="532">we discuss, you know, what is Bitcoin? Why is it not a scam?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-536" data-t="536">You know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-537" data-t="537">usually, David Bailey has a lot to say at that point. And then, you know, they it usually ends with them buying some amount of of Shiba Inu. But,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-547" data-t="547">again, we're speedrunning the process.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-551">9:11</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-551" data-t="551">Very interesting.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-554">9:14</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-554" data-t="554">Funny you bring up John. John Podesta.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-557" data-t="557">Sorry.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-559" data-t="559">He,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-560" data-t="560">ties back into samurai</span> <span class="cue" id="t-562" data-t="562">in that he was a part of the Clinton administration.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-566" data-t="566">And,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-568">9:28</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-568" data-t="568">he was actually, before that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-570" data-t="570">a lobbyist</span> <span class="cue" id="t-571" data-t="571">for corporate encryption.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-574" data-t="574">And then what does the Clinton,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-577" data-t="577">cabinet do?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-578" data-t="578">They turn against Zimmerman</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-581">9:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-581" data-t="581">and Daniel Bernstein,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-583" data-t="583">and, and it feels like we're just doing that all over again. And and what do you know? There's John Podesta out there. Private dinner parties.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-590">9:50</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-590" data-t="590">He's buying pizza with Monero.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-594">9:54</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-594" data-t="594">Yeah. I I mean, look. We we are doing the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-597" data-t="597">Crypto Wars two point o with the with the samurai wallet and tornado cash cases. And so there's a lot of sort of fun nineties history,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-605" data-t="605">we can bring back. And, also, the other thing John Podesta is known for is is being a very serious advocate for UFO disclosure,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-612" data-t="612">which is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-613" data-t="613">now very much back in vogue, especially with our esteemed, executive director of the Bitcoin Policy Institute.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-623">10:23</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-623" data-t="623">So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-624" data-t="624">with the samurai case, it one of the problems, one of the issues is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-629" data-t="629">by the time this stuff hits the news,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-632" data-t="632">the the media, the government, the federal prosecutors, they're able to set the the narrative and like frame it</span> <span class="cue" id="t-639" data-t="639">the conversation,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-641" data-t="641">in the in the kind of terms where that is allowed to be talked about but something me and Richard</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-647">10:47</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-647" data-t="647">really struggle with is, and we're just curious about your thoughts is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-652" data-t="652">from a first person to be just ethically</span> <span class="cue" id="t-655" data-t="655">in a democracy.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-657" data-t="657">Should it be illegal? Should you be punished for laundering money for the CIA? If we as a democratic society have voted for these politicians, support these</span> <span class="cue" id="t-675" data-t="675">a democratic</span> <span class="cue" id="t-677" data-t="677">society, you know, on the blockchain.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-679">11:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-679" data-t="679">If CMRI</span> <span class="cue" id="t-680" data-t="680">is being accused</span> <span class="cue" id="t-682" data-t="682">of doing this,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-684" data-t="684">how is that even a crime? They are they are protecting</span> <span class="cue" id="t-687" data-t="687">democracy.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-690" data-t="690">You know, they're helping the government. So why are they getting in trouble?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-693">11:33</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-693" data-t="693">So I think there's a there's a misunderstanding</span> <span class="cue" id="t-696" data-t="696">here about whether this is about fairness and and the rule of law. If you're familiar with CIA history, they're they're very big into their rituals. There's some amount of,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-707" data-t="707">human sacrifice that that is just a a necessary element in all of this. And the basic legal theory of the samurai wallet case is that we really wish,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-717" data-t="717">there was a bank or some sort of financial institution you could hold responsible,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-722" data-t="722">for people doing stuff we don't like with Bitcoin. That doesn't exist. And so, essentially, we need to find a human sacrifice.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-729" data-t="729">And so it's not really that so much that the the developers</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-734">12:14</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-734" data-t="734">did anything wrong from a a legal perspective by offering the software. It's really more of a a a gentle offering to Moloch.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-741">12:21</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-741" data-t="741">And I think one of the original charges was, saying the quiet part out loud, which we knew the samurai guys like to do. That charge has since been dropped, so they needed to sort of, press some other charges in in in light of them dropping that charge.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-754">12:34</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-754" data-t="754">What is what are these charges? And, like, what is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-758" data-t="758">what is the overall</span> <span class="cue" id="t-760" data-t="760">crime or wrongdoing</span> <span class="cue" id="t-762" data-t="762">that the government is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-763" data-t="763">prosecuting samurai for? Like, it's it's not</span> <span class="cue" id="t-767" data-t="767">using mixers. It's not this like, what is it? Like, all what does it boil down to?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-772">12:52</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-772" data-t="772">There there are two crimes that are alleged here. The first is conspiracy to commit money laundering, which really is saying the quiet part out loud. That is what they're being charged with. Specifically, the charge is you said stuff, that makes it sound like you're insufficiently,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-786" data-t="786">upset about people using your your tools, for nefarious purposes. And and the, you know, the defendants here, court of government, did say some things about knowing that the gray or black market might use these tools. Never mind the fact that the gray or black market</span> <span class="cue" id="t-800" data-t="800">may totally well refer to situations like, human rights advocates in Russia who need to be able to accept Bitcoin privately,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-807" data-t="807">or women in Afghanistan who can't get access to bank accounts and so are violating local laws by using Bitcoin,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-813" data-t="813">through private transactions using CoinJoin.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-816" data-t="816">And then the other crime is unlicensed operation of</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-820">13:40</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-820" data-t="820">a money transmission or money service business.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-823" data-t="823">And here, the license would have been with a part of the government called FinCEN, a part of the treasury department, which has now come out and said,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-831" data-t="831">that they would not have thought that this is money transmission. So there is sort of a Kafka's quality of you didn't get a license with someone who wasn't gonna give you a license,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-841" data-t="841">and, you know, that's the other reason you go to prison. But but those are the two charges.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-845">14:05</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-845" data-t="845">But oddly enough especially</span> <span class="cue" id="t-849" data-t="849">Oh, I was gonna add a little nuance to that. But oddly enough,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-852" data-t="852">it's the it's the DOJ. The government has the right to say which FinCEN members are qualified to say these things and which don't. So in the most recent letter, you essentially had the government saying, well, these people at FinCEN weren't, like, the people we needed to be speaking with at FinCEN, which begs which</span> <span class="cue" id="t-868" data-t="868">the the the people who would make the final decision on this at FinCEN, essentially, which is sort of ironic. It's like, well, why didn't you just call those people then? Why did you end up choosing these two people? And the the other funny part there is, like, when you look at the titles for these two people,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-881" data-t="881">I forget them off the top of my head, Zach. You might know them, but they sounded like some pretty official titles, like the type of people you would call to get this sort of information.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-888">14:48</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-888" data-t="888">Yeah. It was a policy person and an enforcement person who's</span> <span class="cue" id="t-891" data-t="891">generally the people at FinCEN who would who would know this.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-894" data-t="894">But but there's been, like, several rounds of gaslighting. First, it's this is what FinCEN meant, and then it's it doesn't matter what FinCEN meant. And then it's we were just having a conversation with two of our pals, and what they said doesn't really count.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-909" data-t="909">It looks like based on what happened today in the Trejo cash case, like, the government is going to drop a specific</span> <span class="cue" id="t-916" data-t="916">subpart of one of the charges,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-918" data-t="918">having to do specifically</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-920">15:20</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-920" data-t="920">with FinCEN's characterization</span> <span class="cue" id="t-922" data-t="922">of CoinJoin, which is a meaningful step in the right direction. And so they're left with,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-929" data-t="929">the other charge, which is the defendants knew that criminals would use the tool, and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-934" data-t="934">they maintained a tool by which they transmitted funds. And it still runs into this problem of you're charging people with transmitting funds that they didn't transmit.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-943" data-t="943">But, you know, we're we're slowly moving away from any kind of argument that FinCEN,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-948">15:48</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-948" data-t="948">would have considered this to be something that needed a license. Yeah. None of this stuff actually makes sense to anybody anyway. So you'd like the crime doesn't have to make sense. Like, they don't have to actually have done</span> <span class="cue" id="t-959" data-t="959">what the government says they did because none of this is real, and nobody really understands it, especially not a judge or a jury, some 70 bunch year old. Right? So they can just be, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-968" data-t="968">a bunch, you know, it's kinda like a mechanic talking to,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-972" data-t="972">you know, a customer, not mechanic,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-974" data-t="974">the the one from Ocean who,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-977" data-t="977">is apparently, you know, using a bunch of jargon to fool people by off, the ones at, like, the auto mechanic.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-984">16:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-984" data-t="984">So that's they've got that on their side, and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-988" data-t="988">it's very difficult to gauge</span> <span class="cue" id="t-991" data-t="991">how much something matters</span> <span class="cue" id="t-993" data-t="993">based on how much the government spends in US Dollar terms because that's just, like, so, perverted now. Like, you can't get any information from that buyer. You can</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1002" data-t="1002">tell by which credentials they throw at the at the case. Like, who are the people?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1008" data-t="1008">What credentials? What, credentials are they built upon here? Like, they go to an Ivy League school. Is it this department? This attorney? Yeah.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1017">16:57</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1017" data-t="1017">If they're throwing certain types of credentials, you you could tell they</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1021" data-t="1021">are serious about winning for some reason.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1026">17:06</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1026" data-t="1026">Yeah. Although you don't get really you had to you'll get to be an SDY prosecutor unless you have those credentials. So this is this is the office that really, you know, they they decide that they are the smartest people in the room, and and they famously take a very broad view</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1039" data-t="1039">of their jurisdiction.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1041" data-t="1041">The problem is when it really gets to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1044" data-t="1044">deep technical issues where for the first time in human history, we have electronic peer to peer transactions, and then</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1050" data-t="1050">it turns out having gone to Harvard Law School just isn't that helpful in in figuring out how the Bank Secrecy Act applies.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1058">17:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1058" data-t="1058">Speaking of, let's not say credentials, but maybe experience,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1061" data-t="1061">Zach, one of the things that doesn't get talked about too much, was recently brought to my attention who this judge is, what other cases he has tried, what he's well known for. Am I mistaken? Have I heard wrong that this judge was actually</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1074" data-t="1074">the judge that tried the Epstein case? Am I am I wrong about this?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1078">17:58</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1078" data-t="1078">Oh, interesting. I I I actually don't know that. I'm nine 99%.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1082">18:02</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1082" data-t="1082">I'm sure Whitney Webb said it on a podcast.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1086">18:06</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1086" data-t="1086">Yeah. Had to have been that. Had to have been that. I think it was actually Shinobi, to be honest, out of all people that did this research and let me know. But, you know, Shinobi,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1093" data-t="1093">he might have been in, like, a a fit of rage calling people retarded and just maybe blurted that out as well. I'm not sure.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1101">18:21</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1101" data-t="1101">Every once in a while, he gets one right.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1104">18:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1104" data-t="1104">Yeah. In 2019, judge ends, case against Epstein with a nod to the accusers.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1110">18:30</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1110" data-t="1110">And So maybe not. Yeah.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1112">18:32</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1112" data-t="1112">And the courthouse where Let's just assume it's a total coincidence. To the is attached to the jail where Epstein definitely killed himself.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1119">18:39</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1119" data-t="1119">Let's just assume that's all a coincidence</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1121" data-t="1121">because we have no we have we can only speculate that that's all you know, the so let's assume it's all a coincidence.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1127" data-t="1127">Alright.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1128" data-t="1128">We know that the judge,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1130" data-t="1130">tried Epstein.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1132" data-t="1132">There's nothing weird. We know a lot of things. There's nothing we could do about a buyer. Does that change the approach?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1138">18:58</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1138" data-t="1138">Do you stop trying to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1140" data-t="1140">use the moral high ground or, like, this is the book of constitution said, or do you start or do you start getting a little more creative</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1149" data-t="1149">with how you approach this? Because you're not gonna win just because it's the</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1153" data-t="1153">technically, like, moral or legal thing to do. That's out the window.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1158">19:18</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1158" data-t="1158">So does that change how you think about it? Well, we got I kinda wanna put maybe I wanna put that one back on you. So we have the Blanche memo as well. For those who are not familiar with this, we had the deputy, sorry, The US deputy attorney general put out a memo in April. It was over the beginning of April. Forget the date. Maybe April</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1175" data-t="1175">April 10 or something,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1177" data-t="1177">you know, in which he stated that this administration is no longer going to go after,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1182" data-t="1182">you know, mixers and and and other things related to what we call freedom check here.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1187" data-t="1187">So it's a little bit interesting. It it you know, it's part of me thinks, like, is that some sort of</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1193" data-t="1193">is it some sort of and I don't think this is the case, but, you know, it's something that crossed my mind. Is it, like,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1199">19:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1199" data-t="1199">you know, was it conveniently sort of put out after the fact where maybe legal precedent could be established</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1205" data-t="1205">in the samurai case and the tornado cash case? And then at the same time, it sort of looks like the the administration's being friendly to people building this sort of technology by putting out this memo. But the big question seems to be, and it has come up in the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1219" data-t="1219">the correspondence</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1220" data-t="1220">between the prosecution, the dissents, and the court or the letters that they that both sides have submitted,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1225" data-t="1225">the Blanche memo has come up a lot. And it's and especially especially the defense seems to think that that's ground to throw out grounds to throw out the money transmitter charges. I'm not sure if I have that exactly right, Zach, but it's I read the last letter they sent yesterday, and they do mention this specifically.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1239">20:39</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1239" data-t="1239">Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, they they, I think, rightly viewed as grounds to throw out the whole case, that this case is going after. The the Blanche memo says, in addition to the specifics about these charges and mixers and tumblers, which by the way,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1252" data-t="1252">samurai wallet was not a mixer or a tumbler. I I don't think we need to concede this ground to the government. It's a coin join. A mixer or a tumbler is a custodial tool usually on the dark web,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1263" data-t="1263">you know, where you try and buy,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1265" data-t="1265">weird marijuana that comes in brick form, but you don't wanna use your KYC coinbase wallet. And so you send it to a guy, and he sends you other Bitcoin, and then you use that.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1275" data-t="1275">That's not what a coin join is. A coin join is a bunch of people spending Bitcoin at the same time. And what the samurai wallet devs created is a wallet that helps you find other people that wanna participate in those collaborative transactions. So the Blanche memo talks about mixers and tumblers, but that's that's not what it was.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1291">21:31</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1291" data-t="1291">But the blanch memo specifically says we are not going to hold developers responsible for the acts of their users.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1297" data-t="1297">And all of these charges,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1300" data-t="1300">even beyond just the money transmission charges, are are exactly</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1303" data-t="1303">about that. If you're saying that someone entered into a conspiracy</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1307" data-t="1307">to commit money</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1308" data-t="1308">laundering by offering a tool, and, yes, maybe you you did some, unfortunate tweets in around that tool that,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1316">21:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1316" data-t="1316">that that is holding the developer responsible for the act of the user any any way you slice it. And so that, I think, is the main relevance of the Blanche memo.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1325" data-t="1325">It looks like we at least got an answer in Tornado Cash that the government has decided that their prosecution is going to move forward. They've officially decided,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1333" data-t="1333">notwithstanding the Blanche memo, and they just got rid of one of these minor slices here of the charges, and the rest of them are going forward to trial in July.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1342" data-t="1342">But,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1343" data-t="1343">I think a</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1344" data-t="1344">more like, the spirit of the Blanche memo</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1347">22:27</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1347" data-t="1347">not even the spirit. The spirit and the letter of the Blanche memo is that there shouldn't be these types of of cases.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1354">22:34</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1354" data-t="1354">Zach, it feels like</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1356" data-t="1356">this is a trial already happening before the trial. It's this little back and forth of this should be thrown out. No. It shouldn't.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1364" data-t="1364">How much is this actually,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1367" data-t="1367">like, how much weight do you actually give these to actually</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1371" data-t="1371">force,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1372" data-t="1372">the judge to decide against throwing the case out or or forcing them to drop it as opposed to how much is this just, like,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1379">22:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1379" data-t="1379">maybe it's, quote, unquote, normal</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1382" data-t="1382">pretrial,</span> <span class="cue" data-t="1382">like, you know, intimidation</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1384">23:04</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1384" data-t="1384">or something like that. Hey, Jack. Can I add just one thing there quickly, if you don't mind? Just something from being in the courtroom for the for the four or five different pretrial hearings that have existed thus far.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1395" data-t="1395">The prosecution</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1396" data-t="1396">in each of the hearings had well, not the last one, but in the first three, was quite aggressive to the point where the judge actually had to say, like, okay, guys. Enough. Like, essentially saving for the trial. Like, you're you're getting ahead of yourselves by starting to make certain arguments. So just wanted to add that as context that thus far, the the the government has pushed pretty hard, and the judge has sort of told them to calm down in person.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1418">23:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1418" data-t="1418">Well, I actually think the judges maybe more done that in the other direction. So it's not just wrangling or or whatever. The in the American legal system, judges decide issues of law and juries decide issues of fact. And</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1431" data-t="1431">the most important part of all of this is is the issue of law and not fact. It's it's does the Bank Secrecy Act</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1438" data-t="1438">somehow</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1439" data-t="1439">apply to peer to peer transactions where there's not a financial institution</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1443" data-t="1443">in the middle of a transaction?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1445" data-t="1445">If we don't have a bank or a, you know, money transmission business or</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1451">24:11</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1451" data-t="1451">whatever,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1452" data-t="1452">that we can regulate, are we just gonna punish the people who wrote the software that allow individuals to move their money around?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1458" data-t="1458">And that is not a factual question. It is a factual question</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1462" data-t="1462">whether these statements</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1464" data-t="1464">that the Tornado Cash Debs made on Twitter amount to a criminal money laundering conspiracy. And, hopefully, a jury will laugh that out of the room, but,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1474" data-t="1474">the the legal threshold questions are are super important. And,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1478">24:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1478" data-t="1478">you know, when Frank and I were last in the courtroom together, the defense counsel was trying to bring this to the judge's attention and say,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1486" data-t="1486">hey. We're about to go through a bunch of really expensive discovery. There is this important threshold question of, does the Bank Secrecy Act apply here regardless of whatever evidence the government does or does not have, regardless of all of the facts the government is saying. Let's say they're all true and a and a jury is gonna find all those facts in favor of the government.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1503" data-t="1503">Just as a legal matter, you can't bring these charges because of the way the Bank Secrecy Act works. And so before we spend all this time and money on discovery,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1512" data-t="1512">let's figure this question out. And the judge was like, yeah. I don't wanna deal with multiple,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1516" data-t="1516">motions here, so we're gonna treat it all as one and and save it for your omnibus,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1521" data-t="1521">which means, you know, mash together motion later on. And then the judge basically just said that again with the,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1527">25:27</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1527" data-t="1527">revelation</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1528" data-t="1528">that the, prosecutors came out with that they talked to Finsen. The defense counsel said, we need to have a hearing so that the prosecutors can, you</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1536" data-t="1536">know, speak for why they didn't disclose this for a year and why they think it's appropriate to move forward with these charges,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1542" data-t="1542">even once FinCEN said this wasn't money transmission. And, again, the judge was like, yeah. Let's save that for the same, you know, big motion that the defense can do at some point. I I don't wanna have a separate hearing on that. Could just a quick quick question on that note, Zach. You you actually mentioned, I think,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1556">25:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1556" data-t="1556">one of the the motions is coming up in about a week and a half. Would that be what the judge was referring to? Essentially, like, if you guys wanna talk about this, you could talk about it and the pretrial motion that's they pushed it back. It was initially scheduled for, yeah, the last Friday, but it'll be a a week from this Friday. Right?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1571">26:11</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1571" data-t="1571">Yeah. And it's gonna be all the different motions. It's gonna be the Brady motion. It's gonna be the motion dismissed, which is this legal question. It's gonna be evidentiary motion, motions to exclude things from the trial, what are called motions in limine. So all the legal questions that the judge needs to decide before this moves to a trial.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1593">26:33</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1593" data-t="1593">Very interesting. I mean, do you think it's reasonable that we should expect</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1598" data-t="1598">the judge to have to at least showcase that he listened to a few Bitcoin podcasts before being</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1606" data-t="1606">eligible to try this trial?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1608">26:48</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1608" data-t="1608">Well,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1609" data-t="1609">rule 16 of of federal criminal procedure</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1612" data-t="1612">doesn't require that, but it does require,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1614" data-t="1614">him to have come to a firm conclusion on which side of the, opportune debate he's on. What do you think his stance on that is?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1622" data-t="1622">Look. I this particular judge, I think, is is a big ruins guy. So</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1628">27:08</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1628" data-t="1628">Interesting. I also don't I just don't think</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1631" data-t="1631">I think, generally,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1632" data-t="1632">his stance seems to be that he doesn't like a lot of this,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1635" data-t="1635">this money, this, this arbitrary data. Well, you know, it's a different kind of arbitrary data in the upper term, but, you know, he's not a big fan of arbitrary data just floating around there without, without sort of,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1647" data-t="1647">without KYC,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1648" data-t="1648">AML, without a certain regulatory framework. So I would imagine that, yeah, he'd he'd probably</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1653">27:33</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1653" data-t="1653">he'd probably be okay with, with doing away without returns, to be quite sad.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1658" data-t="1658">Mhmm.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1659">27:39</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1659" data-t="1659">Yeah. I guess, I think one of the things</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1662">27:42</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1662" data-t="1662">that is exciting about Bitcoin</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1665" data-t="1665">is that it lowers the price</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1668" data-t="1668">of money laundering</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1670" data-t="1670">and it democratizes</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1671" data-t="1671">it. So it's not just like billionaires like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1676" data-t="1676">the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1679">27:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1679" data-t="1679">It opens it up to all of us.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1681" data-t="1681">And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1683" data-t="1683">it seems like one of the core battles here is like, you know, the</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1688" data-t="1688">Southern District Of New York believes</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1691" data-t="1691">that in order to be able to have access to money laundering,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1695" data-t="1695">you need to be</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1696">28:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1696" data-t="1696">incredibly wealthy, you need to use the banking system, you need to be able to afford a lot of Jewish accountants.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1704">28:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1704" data-t="1704">I mean, we'll see where fees go.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1709">28:29</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1709" data-t="1709">What is what is that what is the term for, like, would you submit, like, a letter or publish something to a court? Not really in support, but you, like, want it to be on the record, so you're submitting it. What's is there a term for that? Do you know what I'm talking about? I I think you're talking about an amicus brief where An amicus brief. Should</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1726" data-t="1726">how do Bitcoiners and Bitcoin podcasters how could we go about submitting an amicus brief that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1733" data-t="1733">takes and coalesces some of the most</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1736" data-t="1736">important Bitcoin podcasts that have been,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1740" data-t="1740">you know, interviewed on the on the subject and transcribe those and set those as an amicus brief so that the, you know, that the court has to at least</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1749" data-t="1749">listen to or, you know, read the transcripts of Sailor's series</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1753">29:13</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1753" data-t="1753">before</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1754" data-t="1754">before, you know, continuing with this trial. Yeah.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1757">29:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1757" data-t="1757">Please don't.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1760">29:20</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1760" data-t="1760">I think I think that's actually only fair in that. I think it was the prosecution. It was the prosecution or the defense that mentioned the amount of terabytes of data that they have would you could stack back and forth to the moon,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1771" data-t="1771">22 times or something along those lines. It would be a nonstandard</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1774">29:34</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1774" data-t="1774">it would be a nonstandard size amicus brief for sure. Yeah.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1778">29:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1778" data-t="1778">But It's it's funny. In the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1781" data-t="1781">so I I early in my legal career, I I did clerkships. I worked for federal judges actually in the same building where this is all going down. And one of the judges I worked for was an appellate judge on the, Silk Road case. And one of the important</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1796" data-t="1796">parts of the appeal was did they allow all the defense expert witness. And one of the defense expert witnesses was going to be Roger Ver who wanted to go on stage and just explain the importance of Bitcoin to the jury for I don't know how long. And, the judge found that that was not particularly relevant or or helpful.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1814">30:14</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1814" data-t="1814">Yeah. That's that's that's what you gotta love about Roger Ver. He's he's he just still buzzed it from the low end of the game even if it's not necessary or helpful.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1823">30:23</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1823" data-t="1823">You'd think that, yeah, you'd think the Ross Ulbricht trial was not not the time to do a live Bitcoin podcast. But Exactly.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1829">30:29</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1829" data-t="1829">That's what</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1831" data-t="1831">the judge seemed to think.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1834" data-t="1834">Maybe it was the time, who knows?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1837" data-t="1837">But,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1839" data-t="1839">I want to hear a little bit about P2P rights. So I learned about P2P rights</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1845" data-t="1845">in Nashville,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1846">30:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1846" data-t="1846">at the conference last year. I was talking to the Ronin Dojo guys. They were explaining to me the whole situation that they're dealing with.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1854" data-t="1854">That was the first time that I heard about it. I I talked to some of the BPI guys, there, smoked a cigarette with David Zell.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1864" data-t="1864">It is a very interesting thing.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1870" data-t="1870">You guys were able to identify</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1873" data-t="1873">that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1875" data-t="1875">Jewish lawyers are expensive</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1877">31:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1877" data-t="1877">and that we need to help Bitcoiners afford them</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1880" data-t="1880">to get fair representation.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1884" data-t="1884">What is the P2P rights fund about?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1887" data-t="1887">Why should people look at it? Why should people donate? I'm a donor to it. I've donated</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1894" data-t="1894">a fair amount of my</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1896" data-t="1896">podcast earnings</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1898">31:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1898" data-t="1898">to the fund.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1901">31:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1901" data-t="1901">Yeah. Absolutely. Now let me start by noting that, Ernie, neither of the, principal defense lawyers in Samurai are are Jewish lawyers, and the only Jewish lawyer, deeply involved so far is is myself, and and I've not seen a dime. So, really, I played myself on this one. But,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1916" data-t="1916">the P2P rights failure.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1918" data-t="1918">It's it's explicitly not,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1921" data-t="1921">look. Privacy is really important, but the P2P rights fund is not a</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1925" data-t="1925">about privacy. It is a it's about a very specific, really important issue that we're facing in this moment in time, which is that Satoshi Nakamoto</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1934" data-t="1934">in 2008 invented</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1936">32:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1936" data-t="1936">peer to peer electronic cash. Right? And both the peer to peer part of it and the cash part mean that it is much more like handing a dollar bill, a physical paper bill from one person to another than it is like sending a Venmo or Zelle transaction where you're using the traditional banking rails.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1952" data-t="1952">And that is the innovation here. And, certainly, that's the innovation of Bitcoin as as peer to peer money, and it's a lot of what the, you know, crypto people are working on with with other things,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1963" data-t="1963">sending JPEGs and tokens in a in a peer to peer fashion.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1966" data-t="1966">And the law</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1968" data-t="1968">needs to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1970" data-t="1970">digest the fact that this new technology</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1973">32:53</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1973" data-t="1973">exists. And until you've listened to hours and hours and hours of Bitcoin podcasts, it's it's kind of hard to fully grok what it means for money to be peer to peer. And</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1983" data-t="1983">we're doing a pretty decent job on Capitol Hill and in the White House educating people on why this is a big deal. But judges</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1990" data-t="1990">federal judges are just really fucking old. Like, they're just Right. Very old.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1995" data-t="1995">And there is a giant risk factor,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1999" data-t="1999">that we will get court cases, whether they are criminal court cases like, the the samurai wallet case or civil court cases. There are adjacent issues,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2009" data-t="2009">like with some of the the decentralized exchanges in in crypto land like like Uniswap, where a judge might not understand</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2015">33:35</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2015" data-t="2015">that there isn't</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2017" data-t="2017">anyone to regulate in a peer to peer transaction.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2020" data-t="2020">And the specific danger here is that we are going to criminalize the tools or criminalize the people who make the tools in place of a financial intermediary, which is presumed by the law but doesn't exist. So the peer to peer rights fund</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2034" data-t="2034">was we started it in April '24, which was at the time of the indictment in the samurai wild case, but also,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2042" data-t="2042">the same week as a reply brief in the tornado cash case where the government put out this ridiculous argument that the word transmit</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2049" data-t="2049">doesn't require you to have control of something, but it can mean the same thing for, like, heat to be transmitted by a frying pan or or electricity or data to be transmitted by USB cable. And therefore,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2059">34:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2059" data-t="2059">they can punish anyone who's involved in facilitating any any movement of money And on the blockchain. And</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2067" data-t="2067">there's a real risk, as we've already seen once in the Tornado Cash cases, the judges are gonna agree with this. So the</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2072" data-t="2072">the reason for existence in the peer to peer rights fund, and I hope this is not a thing</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2077" data-t="2077">that lasts forever, it is to help this specific moment in time where we run a risk that courts that judges are going to set bad case law because we have what's called a common law,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2088" data-t="2088">system in The United States where when judges decide something, that becomes law, that becomes precedent.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2093" data-t="2093">We need to not</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2094">34:54</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2094" data-t="2094">accidentally</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2095" data-t="2095">have the precedent,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2096" data-t="2096">not by regulators, not by elected officials, but just by judges who don't understand this technology</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2102" data-t="2102">that don't get that this is peer to peer money. And so Right.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2106" data-t="2106">People,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2107" data-t="2107">just like they have with cash, have a right to transfer money peer to peer. The Bank Secrecy Act doesn't apply to it, and we need to keep it that way. And so the mission of the peer to peer rights fund and and helping to fund the defense in the samurai wild cases is the first big example of this. But,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2120">35:20</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2120" data-t="2120">unfortunately, there will be others down the road is to get us</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2124" data-t="2124">through this difficult moment in time and to make sure that the case law that's gonna be set over the next</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2130" data-t="2130">I can't imagine this is longer than the next five years before the precedent gets solidified here, that that precedent comes out the right way and doesn't become sort of a accidental</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2139" data-t="2139">backdoor attack on Freedom Money.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2143">35:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2143" data-t="2143">I think Just a quick thing to weigh in on there, if you don't mind. I would say, dude, the one thing I after speaking with, shores provost,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2150" data-t="2150">Bitcoin core dev, we did a talk at, the MIT</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2153" data-t="2153">Freedom Tech Forum. I was, you know, for as ridiculous as some of,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2158" data-t="2158">what's coming out of the you know, what what's happened here around the tornado cache in some right wallet cases has been it's been even more ridiculous in The Netherlands where I think it was the judge that ruled that just for deploying the smart contract where it could be used for money laundering,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2172" data-t="2172">the person did something or, you know, the developer did something,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2176" data-t="2176">that, you know, he knew could be used for illicit purposes and therefore,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2180">36:20</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2180" data-t="2180">you know, did the wrong thing. I forget exactly what the the judge said, but it's it's been even more harsh there. Thank goodness. None of that will have any bearing on what gets decided here, but,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2191" data-t="2191">kind kind of insane to think that it can get more insane than it's been already here.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2197">36:37</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2197" data-t="2197">Yeah.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2198" data-t="2198">The</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2199" data-t="2199">that, like, vagueness around the word transmit and what it could mean,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2204" data-t="2204">it just it's a reminder of the importance of understanding the remote dynamics. And it almost makes me think, like, you you should, in a case like this, you have a right</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2213" data-t="2213">to a jury</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2214" data-t="2214">that listens to forty hours per week. Not just the that because that is what we're talking about. Right? Peer to peer that is the jury of your peers somebody who doesn't listen to Bitcoin podcast</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2223">37:03</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2223" data-t="2223">It's hard to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2224" data-t="2224">it's very hard to argue that they're my peer but one of the things that the bugle talked about</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2231" data-t="2231">almost all of 2024</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2233" data-t="2233">was this</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2234" data-t="2234">it boils down to this peer to peer rights</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2237" data-t="2237">We have been</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2238">37:18</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2238" data-t="2238">doing all the being transparent, we're showing proof of reserves</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2242" data-t="2242">I, you know, at Bitcoin exchanges</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2245" data-t="2245">Swan has a proof of lawsuits to let everybody know any losses they're involved in.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2249" data-t="2249">That we have just</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2251" data-t="2251">people like Adam Cimaca or holding Jack Dorsey</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2254" data-t="2254">accountable</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2255">37:35</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2255" data-t="2255">to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2256" data-t="2256">show like his his node and how and how many Bitcoin</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2260" data-t="2260">he has for his Bitcoin treasury company</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2263" data-t="2263">and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2264" data-t="2264">we've been doing all this and we've been complying</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2267" data-t="2267">and the government's just not like we talked about this right like this this brief came out</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2271">37:51</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2271" data-t="2271">that explained, like, hey. None of this stuff is illegal. And we're like, yeah. We're still not dropping the case. And it's like, we're giving it to an Epstein judge more or less. Like, this person does not seem to understand the constitution very well, but they're gonna judge this case.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2284" data-t="2284">And</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2285" data-t="2285">we're out. We're compliant so hard. The government's noncompliant. How are we to have a peer to peer</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2291" data-t="2291">relationship with our democratically</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2293" data-t="2293">elected government</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2295" data-t="2295">if</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2296">38:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2296" data-t="2296">they are not holding up their end of the bargain? We're all complying with the government. It's time to for them to comply.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2303">38:23</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2303" data-t="2303">Yeah. That's the end goal with all of this.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2307" data-t="2307">The peer to peer rights fund is meant to bridge this moment in time and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2311" data-t="2311">do our best to not get bad case law. But at the end of the day, the government is not going to like power being taken from them, power over the money supply, power to censor or surveil transactions.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2322" data-t="2322">And so</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2323" data-t="2323">the government</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2324" data-t="2324">complied with regard to the Bitcoin network in the first place and didn't try and make an argument like the Bank Secrecy Act applies to Bitcoin itself</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2332">38:52</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2332" data-t="2332">because that just wasn't possible because,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2335" data-t="2335">someone out there figured out how to build a genuinely</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2339" data-t="2339">censorship resistant even at the nation state level so far, knock on wood, technology.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2344" data-t="2344">And that's what we need. So,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2347" data-t="2347">you know, David Zell and I are</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2349" data-t="2349">we'll do our part. He'll you know, he's up on the hill. I'm gonna try and fight in these cases. But, ultimately, it comes down to the people,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2356">39:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2356" data-t="2356">who are who are building things, to people who are listening to their forty hours per week of of Bitcoin podcasts and saying,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2363" data-t="2363">you know, you know what? I think that, I can raise some money from from David Bailey to to build something here.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2370">39:30</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2370" data-t="2370">Question to you about this whole, like, loss of power that might be a motivation behind this case.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2376" data-t="2376">I was kinda wondering,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2378" data-t="2378">if everybody's done their research,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2380" data-t="2380">and watched the show billions,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2383" data-t="2383">one of the main characters is, like, the lead attorney for SDNY.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2387" data-t="2387">And I was wondering, like, why do they get to</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2391">39:51</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2391" data-t="2391">determine all these cases</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2393" data-t="2393">that have nothing to do with the Southern District Of New York and and have to do with the rest of The US?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2398" data-t="2398">And, ChatGPT</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2400" data-t="2400">informed me about all these tiny little loopholes about how they're able to,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2406" data-t="2406">claim it goes through their jurisdiction,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2408" data-t="2408">again, through their power.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2410">40:10</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2410" data-t="2410">Things like, you know, if a wire just goes through New York,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2414" data-t="2414">then they're able to to claim that, prosecute there. If,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2420" data-t="2420">if you have a headquarters there, it doesn't even need to go through New York. Apparently, that's another reason why SDNY can get the case. And then the most ridiculous one is just a server, if there's, like, a copy of it on the server or something like that. So how I wonder you brought up transmission and their definition of that. Is there any sort of, like, potential here where SDNY</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2441" data-t="2441">actually has, like, a personal motivation</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2444" data-t="2444">in this case,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2445" data-t="2445">because it's it's maybe the start. They're losing ground if they lose this on on what they can even prosecute against.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2453">40:53</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2453" data-t="2453">I mean, I think, actually, you just explained the what's called a jurisdictional hook totally correctly, and it is every bit as ridiculous as as you say.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2462" data-t="2462">When they talk about</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2463" data-t="2463">money laundering conspiracy here, they need to talk about the underlying crime from which money is money laundering is is happening to hide the funds, and they are</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2472" data-t="2472">picking wire fraud as one of those,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2474" data-t="2474">charges. That's not an accident. It's that the jurisdictional hook, as long as you get it going through computers,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2481" data-t="2481">in the jurisdiction, you can claim jurisdiction.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2483">41:23</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2483" data-t="2483">The Southern District Of New York has the most prestigious lawyers, right, really truly the most compliant,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2489" data-t="2489">of any US attorney's office in The United States, and they try and bring these ambitious cases.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2494" data-t="2494">You'd wish they'd be less ambitious in what they stretch the word transmission to mean, but,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2499" data-t="2499">the this is actually completely par for the course,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2502" data-t="2502">and that that is a pretty realistic part of of the show billings.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2506">41:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2506" data-t="2506">Just a quick question for you too, Zach, there. How much do you feel like these lawyers really are trying to set an example by</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2514" data-t="2514">demonstrating their their prowess and understanding the law and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2518" data-t="2518">and, I don't know, you know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2521" data-t="2521">in in fighting the bad guys and blah blah blah because they genuinely think it's right versus just egos being in the way and people wanting to prove certain points and that sort of muddying the waters as far as justice being served.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2532">42:12</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2532" data-t="2532">I think people are complicated, and it's both. There's this really interesting book,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2537" data-t="2537">called The Chicken Shit Club about,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2539" data-t="2539">the prosecutor's office in the Southern District Of New York right after the financial crisis.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2543" data-t="2543">And this was the period that at least the first season of Billions is directly about, which was this big</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2549" data-t="2549">standoff between Preet Bharara, who was the US attorney's office at the time.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2553" data-t="2553">Actually, funny story about him. He sat down with Paul Giamatti to have lunch a whole bunch of times to prep for the role, and his very conservative Indian immigrant family was so excited that, you know, he was gonna be a a character based on him at the show, and they all gathered for the premiere. And and the first scene, if you've seen Billions, is like an s and m scene where, Paul Jumani gets peed on and a and a a cigarette burned on on his nipple or something like that, and and Preet's parents were just livid and and turned off the TV, and it was like a huge family scandal.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2584">43:04</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2584" data-t="2584">But</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2585" data-t="2585">Preet Bharara went after</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2587" data-t="2587">hedge fund managers for money laundering. That was what he did. He didn't go after any of the big public company CEOs, any of the big banks, any any of the systemic things,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2598" data-t="2598">that led to the financial crisis, which happened right before</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2601" data-t="2601">his tenure there. And</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2604" data-t="2604">the book makes the case, the chicken chip club, that all the lawyers there, they're smart. They wanna go after bad guys, but then they also wanna go make a couple million bucks a year at a big law firm. And,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2614">43:34</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2614" data-t="2614">going after these big law firms biggest clients is is not a great way to get that job, and you can only push so hard. And so</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2623" data-t="2623">I think people take</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2625" data-t="2625">the people go to the SDNY.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2626" data-t="2626">People they do it because they want trial experience. They do it because it's interesting. I think they do do it because it's a sense of duty, but humans are humans. And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2634" data-t="2634">ultimately,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2636" data-t="2636">people are swayed by what they're personally motivated</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2640">44:00</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2640" data-t="2640">by. That's why Bitcoin works.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2643">44:03</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2643" data-t="2643">Yep.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2644" data-t="2644">I think there's two ways to purchase. Or there's more than two ways, but there's two main ways to purchase.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2650" data-t="2650">Either</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2652" data-t="2652">we support</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2653" data-t="2653">or like you did, set up funds like, p2prights.org,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2658" data-t="2658">or we need to petition Fauci</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2660">44:20</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2660" data-t="2660">to create another virus</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2662" data-t="2662">to kill all these boomer judges.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2664" data-t="2664">And I think like the P2P rights,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2667" data-t="2667">is much more preferable than another boomer mover getting unleashed on society because that wasn't very fun.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2677" data-t="2677">Yeah, I mean, this is an important issue for all of us. As a Bitcoin podcaster, I take this very seriously.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2683" data-t="2683">One of the impacts</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2685">44:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2685" data-t="2685">that I've seen that's been very devastating by this case</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2689" data-t="2689">is many wallets and wallet developers</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2692" data-t="2692">have been afraid to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2694" data-t="2694">work on their projects.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2697" data-t="2697">In many ways, that invalidates a lot of the hard work that Bitcoin podcasters</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2701" data-t="2701">have done.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2702">45:02</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2702" data-t="2702">Like a guy like BTC Sessions, he's done all these tutorials.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2707" data-t="2707">The tutorials get invalidated</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2710" data-t="2710">retrospectively</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2711" data-t="2711">because these wallets don't support these jurisdictions</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2715" data-t="2715">anymore because of these</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2717" data-t="2717">court cases.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2718">45:18</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2718" data-t="2718">And it's something that impacts us all. Like the guy that's going to the meetup every week, he onboarded</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2726" data-t="2726">the bartender to accept tapes for using Wallace Satoshi. Well, now Wallace Satoshi doesn't work anymore.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2734" data-t="2734">All that effort that and and money that he spent,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2738" data-t="2738">teaching her how to how to use it,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2741" data-t="2741">completely wasted. And that that that makes it very, very difficult to to use</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2746" data-t="2746">and and operate,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2751">45:51</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2751" data-t="2751">just, you know, teaching people about Bitcoin.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2755">45:55</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2755" data-t="2755">But can we can we be fair and say that if it weren't for the courts acting in a manner they're acting, then we wouldn't have the sort of grist for the mill for a podcast like this as well. So while they're sort of,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2767" data-t="2767">invalidating some of the podcasts that are made, they're giving us a reason to make other podcasts. So we wanna be fair here in our assessment of the situation.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2773">46:13</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2773" data-t="2773">Yeah. Yeah. But I'd I'd prefer not to do this podcast</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2777" data-t="2777">at the end of the day.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2778">46:18</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2778" data-t="2778">You know what I mean? It's like also being it's like a duty you feel?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2784">46:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2784" data-t="2784">Oh, I think it's I think it's important. I mean, it's just like, you know at the Beagle, we believe strongly</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2789" data-t="2789">in,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2791" data-t="2791">not jumping on the the engagement bandwagons,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2794" data-t="2794">just for the sake of engagement. I know it's kind of like an unusual thing</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2799" data-t="2799">in the</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2800" data-t="2800">replicator ecosystem, but we believe in practicing journalism. We believe in</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2806">46:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2806" data-t="2806">in talking about interesting things. I personally think this is one of the more interesting topics right now, unfortunately, one of the more important</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2814" data-t="2814">topics. And it's</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2816" data-t="2816">a little bit more important than</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2819" data-t="2819">people</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2820" data-t="2820">attempting to rape</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2821" data-t="2821">Luke Dash Jr's node.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2824">47:04</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2824" data-t="2824">It definitely doesn't get as much engagement as that topic but,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2829" data-t="2829">but yeah, I do think it's important. I think it's important to,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2833" data-t="2833">like Rod was pointing out,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2836" data-t="2836">we can't have this one-sided non compliance where the government is the only one</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2841" data-t="2841">that has the right to not comply.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2844" data-t="2844">That's wrong.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2846">47:26</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2846" data-t="2846">We should either</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2847" data-t="2847">both be forced to comply or</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2851" data-t="2851">we should be both allowed not to comply.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2855" data-t="2855">But there needs to be equality</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2858" data-t="2858">of complying</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2859" data-t="2859">all around for everybody. And it's something I'm willing to, you know, put my foot down. We have this tagline,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2866">47:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2866" data-t="2866">and you probably know about this, Frank, you know, being a credential journalism. Like, we believe very strongly that journalism dies in compliance.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2875" data-t="2875">And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2881" data-t="2881">in in the very nature of Bitcoin at the end of the day, you know, is being not compliant.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2886" data-t="2886">So I mean, I think it's really good to bring the attack and just</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2892" data-t="2892">be on the offensive. Because that's like one of the problems is these guys are,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2896" data-t="2896">they're always on the offensive.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2899">48:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2899" data-t="2899">I think the average person using Bitcoin, they're just like, I wanna do my peer to peer, non KYC cigarette transaction.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2906" data-t="2906">I wanna be left alone. I wanna, you know, hang out, smoke my cigarettes, and listen to this podcast.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2912" data-t="2912">I don't wanna think about</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2915" data-t="2915">having to defend myself from</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2917" data-t="2917">the pedophiles who are trying to tell me not where I can't smoke.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2921" data-t="2921">I just wanna enjoy it. I wanna think about Dennis Porter and have sex with my wife.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2928">48:48</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2928" data-t="2928">But the problem is is these people are always on the offensive trying to get in your way. They're trying</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2935" data-t="2935">to interrupt you. And whether you like it or not,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2938" data-t="2938">they're gonna show up eventually</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2941" data-t="2941">and tell you that that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2943" data-t="2943">custodial lightning transaction</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2945" data-t="2945">was not allowed.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2948">49:08</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2948" data-t="2948">You know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2951" data-t="2951">so I know you guys are pressed for time here, so I wanna thank you for coming on but I had one last question for Zach</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2959" data-t="2959">if you guys didn't know he was on What Bitcoin Did a few days ago they got a really good episode so check that out but my question oh Zach when you the day that you're</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2970" data-t="2970">your what you you didn't you get to go on what Bitcoin did you get to do what Bitcoin did interview and you like when that comes out you could share that in your group chat send it to your family</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2978" data-t="2978">like what's that like? It's gotta be</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2980" data-t="2980">that's gotta I I'm thinking about that day in my future, I hope. What was it like for you?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2988">49:48</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2988" data-t="2988">I think my family was very confused.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2991" data-t="2991">No. I mean, look. Danny is terrific. I do feel bad.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2995" data-t="2995">I</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2996" data-t="2996">briefly mixed up in the episode,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2999" data-t="2999">Danny and and Peter, and so I was trying to explain the common law point we were talking about earlier. I was like, you know, in in The UK, this is the same system you have forgetting that he was Australian, and so that that was, that was mortifying. But,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3012" data-t="3012">it is the highest</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3014">50:14</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3014" data-t="3014">possible credential in in Bitcoin. And so,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3018" data-t="3018">it's been difficult to see where I where I go from there.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3021" data-t="3021">But</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3023">50:23</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3023" data-t="3023">That's the worst part. Right? It's like you think during about this day and then you get there, it's like, I'm still not fulfilled.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3029" data-t="3029">What's the next what's the next podcast? Maybe. I don't know.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3032" data-t="3032">What's the what kind of podcast do you listen to outside of Bitcoin?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3038">50:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3038" data-t="3038">I probably shouldn't say that out loud. It's,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3043">50:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3043" data-t="3043">fair enough. Fair enough. The the</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3045" data-t="3045">the political answer is I don't listen to podcasts outside of Bitcoin. No.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3050" data-t="3050">I don't have time.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3052">50:52</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3052" data-t="3052">I I didn't know there were podcasts outside of Bitcoin.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3056">50:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3056" data-t="3056">Hell yeah, Frank. He gets it.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3060">51:00</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3060" data-t="3060">Might as well not be.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3062" data-t="3062">Well,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3064" data-t="3064">as we let you guys go, I think I'm gonna keep the stream rolling and talk a little bit about the, the event after you guys</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3070" data-t="3070">drop off. But before we</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3072" data-t="3072">transition to that, you guys have anything,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3075" data-t="3075">you wanna promote or say?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3079">51:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3079" data-t="3079">Yeah. Real really excited about about your guys' event, and I think there is an important role to play if there ends up being a trial in samurai wallet. The we're gonna have to contextualize</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3089" data-t="3089">some of these statements,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3091" data-t="3091">the, defendants made. And so if the the more we can make the case that that was</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3097" data-t="3097">par for the course in in Bitcoin lingo, the the more helpful. So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3102" data-t="3102">I I hope and expect for some pretty outlandish</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3105" data-t="3105">stuff.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3106">51:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3106" data-t="3106">And then for anyone looking for the the polar opposite,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3109" data-t="3109">I do wanna show the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3111" data-t="3111">BPI</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3112" data-t="3112">very, very, very compliant summit,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3115" data-t="3115">at the end of June in DC.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3117" data-t="3117">If you wanna hang out with,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3119">51:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3119" data-t="3119">government officials,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3120" data-t="3120">intelligence community folks, no no joke, are gonna come and speak about Bitcoin,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3124" data-t="3124">and and that's gonna be fascinating.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3128">52:08</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3128" data-t="3128">Yeah. I think just a second what Zach said there about the event, satirize the system.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3133" data-t="3133">Everybody will be in Vegas if you haven't got your ticket yet. I believe it's Wednesday evening. That's the day it's the evening after the second day of the conference.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3142" data-t="3142">I will be the emcee for the evening, for the earlier part of the evening when we will have,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3146" data-t="3146">guests that are just trying to be compliant. The Kate Malongs of the world who are just trying to submit the proper paperwork to get the proper</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3153" data-t="3153">just trying to get the right documents so that she could, work her crowd. The The Yeah. None of the elders. If you I mean, I don't know if we would call Trace Mayer an elder. He isn't a he isn't sort of a different right, but he's not one of kinda quote, unquote, the elders, but still someone to be sort of, very excited to have there. We'll have the one and only Rob Hamilton as well from what I understand.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3174">52:54</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3174" data-t="3174">An extremely compliant</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3176" data-t="3176">extremely compliant individual.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3177" data-t="3177">So, yeah, looking forward to hosting it. Quite honored to be there with you. Hoping to smoke at least a full pack of cigarettes,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3184" data-t="3184">in between introducing and, you know, introducing the different guests. So backstage,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3189" data-t="3189">you guys see, a huge puffs of smoke coming out back, which is just, Richard, Rod, and I,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3194" data-t="3194">you know, filling</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3196">53:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3196" data-t="3196">filling our lungs up with,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3198">53:18</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3198" data-t="3198">Where there is, yeah, where there is smoke</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3201" data-t="3201">where there is smoke, there is fire, Bitcoin podcast signal. And, yeah, I I would say I</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3207" data-t="3207">describe Trace Mayer as having a macro elder soul.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3211" data-t="3211">He doesn't have the age, but he's got the macro elder soul.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3214">53:34</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3214" data-t="3214">Amen.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3217">53:37</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3217" data-t="3217">What pack what type what brand of cigarettes do you smoke, Frank? Just out of curiosity.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3222">53:42</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3222" data-t="3222">Just as we know, there's only, one type of podcast, the Bitcoin podcast. There's only one type of cigarette, and we know those are Marlboro Reds.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3229">53:49</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3229" data-t="3229">Well said.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3231" data-t="3231">Very cool.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3233" data-t="3233">Zach, you got anything?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3237">53:57</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3237" data-t="3237">Nope. Looking forward to see you all there.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3239">53:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3239" data-t="3239">How are you, man? Thanks for coming on.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3241">54:01</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Zack Shapiro</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3241" data-t="3241">Anytime.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3243">54:03</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Frank Corva</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3243" data-t="3243">Take it easy, guys.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3245">54:05</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3245" data-t="3245">See you.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3248">54:08</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3248" data-t="3248">Well, yeah, I just wanted to roll for a minute.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3251" data-t="3251">So update,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3254" data-t="3254">if you want to pay for the event in bitcoin,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3259" data-t="3259">just DM</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3260" data-t="3260">the twenty one media.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3262" data-t="3262">I think,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3267">54:27</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3267" data-t="3267">yeah, it's pretty pretty easy to do. Just hop in their DMs,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3270" data-t="3270">shoot them DM. You can pay for a big one. I think there's some space here for,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3276">54:36</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3276" data-t="3276">like,</span> <span class="cue" data-t="3276">an event</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3278" data-t="3278">competitor.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3279" data-t="3279">At this point, there's, like, one or two really good event</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3282" data-t="3282">companies slash sites.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3284" data-t="3284">So we're using one of them, and,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3288">54:48</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3288" data-t="3288">it doesn't have any sort of Bitcoin acceptance.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3291" data-t="3291">So,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3292" data-t="3292">I think there's room to compete with them, if there's anybody with any ideas for an event startup that just accepts Bitcoin.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3300" data-t="3300">We would we would how many people would take that in a heartbeat?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3304">55:04</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3304" data-t="3304">I think you could probably do it with Zap. Right? I've seen people do that before. That that's a possibility.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3311" data-t="3311">It probably needs to be marketed a little bit</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3313" data-t="3313">better. But yeah.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3317" data-t="3317">I'm stoked for this event. I think it's gonna be the best event in Vegas.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3321" data-t="3321">We're gonna make sure it's the best event in Vegas. We got a stellar,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3326" data-t="3326">group of individuals that already bought tickets.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3329">55:29</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3329" data-t="3329">There definitely is the potential that we're running into that the the VIP tickets will sell out because there's a limited amount of space</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3338" data-t="3338">in the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3341" data-t="3341">wrestling room where Rod and I will be, calling the fights.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3345" data-t="3345">We have not hit that threshold yet, but, you know, we're approaching it</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3349" data-t="3349">little,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3351" data-t="3351">slowly but surely.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3353">55:53</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3353" data-t="3353">And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3356" data-t="3356">yeah, I mean, I'm stoked about the event.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3361">56:01</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3361" data-t="3361">Yeah. But it's it's kinda crazy. The,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3364" data-t="3364">the ticket sales, the VIP tickets,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3368" data-t="3368">which long story short, as you mentioned, means you're in the the live event room.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3373" data-t="3373">I think we it's almost at, like, a one to one ratio of of the sales there. So,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3378" data-t="3378">that is kinda going fast. But on the upside of the other ticket is you have, like, the coolest,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3384" data-t="3384">most fun venue where you get to play all the bowling you want. You get to play all the the video games and stuff like that you want. You get to hang out at the bar,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3393">56:33</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3393" data-t="3393">and talk as much as you want with, people around you. I I guess you can do that at other places, but but this is a place where it's gonna be a full environment.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3401" data-t="3401">Anywhere you turn, there's gonna be some sort of activity</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3404" data-t="3404">to,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3406" data-t="3406">to make your your mitochondria</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3408" data-t="3408">go to work and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3410" data-t="3410">give you some, I don't know, whatever the the</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3413">56:53</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3413" data-t="3413">the brain chemical is you get from serotonin</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3415" data-t="3415">for fun? Is that what it is? You guys are the credentialed experts here. Probably dopamine. Dopamine. That's it.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3424" data-t="3424">Yeah.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3426" data-t="3426">Yeah. And and then, actually, we were just talking about samurai walls. Let's talk about that again.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3432" data-t="3432">Something that we all</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3435" data-t="3435">have have</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3437">57:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3437" data-t="3437">cared about since before even knowing each other and crossed paths along the way and was something that we wanted to carry forward together.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3446" data-t="3446">So we we are doing a trivia</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3449" data-t="3449">contest,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3450" data-t="3450">that is, sponsored by the good people over at Zeus Wallet,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3454" data-t="3454">where we'll play some Bitcoin trivia in the ring.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3458" data-t="3458">Go head to head. And,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3461">57:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3461" data-t="3461">each time you win, you get a $100, and then you go go on to become a champion.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3466" data-t="3466">Somebody will be deemed the champion.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3468" data-t="3468">And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3470" data-t="3470">any of</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3471" data-t="3471">all of the money that goes towards the raffle tickets for being able to compete,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3476" data-t="3476">goes towards the samurai fund, the peer to peer fund. And then on top of that, every single ticket,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3483">58:03</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3483" data-t="3483">$5 of it will be donated to the the samurai the peer to peer fund,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3489" data-t="3489">and,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3490" data-t="3490">and you get five tickets automatically. So just by showing up,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3494" data-t="3494">you've donated money to the peer to peer fund, and you've been entered in your chance to be a part of this contest. And at that point, depending on how much you will actually want to be in it,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3505" data-t="3505">any sort of, financial</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3508" data-t="3508">value that you put towards that all goes to the peer to peer fund. So, that's something that I think is is kinda cool. It can be hard</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3516">58:36</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3516" data-t="3516">to get people to donate.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3519" data-t="3519">Sometimes, even if you don't have much money, it's hard to, to do. But if you find yourself in Vegas</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3524" data-t="3524">and,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3525" data-t="3525">and there's an entire event going on and some fun going on, made some friends going,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3530" data-t="3530">the idea that you that you could, be also donating to, samurai</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3534" data-t="3534">wallet is is something that,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3538">58:58</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3538" data-t="3538">that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3539" data-t="3539">I I I guess makes it easier, makes it makes it</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3543" data-t="3543">something</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3544" data-t="3544">I'm turning this in on myself because</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3547" data-t="3547">there's big times that you get stopped and and people ask for donations and you wanna help out, and maybe you're,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3553" data-t="3553">you're you've fallen on hard times or things like that,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3557">59:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3557" data-t="3557">and it can be hard to do. But,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3559" data-t="3559">if you if you have put yourself in a situation where you are in Vegas, it means that you've already kinda committed.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3564" data-t="3564">And, and this is an opportunity where you can not only donate just by going, but then, you know, donate just a little bit further while you're there. And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3573" data-t="3573">and I think it'll be something that we can then get to talk about it, why it's important. We get some experts up there, some great people like we just had here,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3582" data-t="3582">and, and it it'll be all around a good time of,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3585" data-t="3585">not just talking the talk, but walking the walk.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3588">59:48</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3588" data-t="3588">Yeah. And I I I just wanna jump in here and say, you know, you you have this, you know, this ask of the of donating. I</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3596" data-t="3596">I'm of the opinion. We've had a really good year. We're dunking on people left and right. They coin a 100 k. I mean, it's you if you've got an MSTR, you're crushing it. If you got the MSTY,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3607" data-t="3607">you're getting you quit your job, you're getting a bigger salary just collecting those dividends.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3612" data-t="3612">Just</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3613" data-t="3613">just give a mugs</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3615" data-t="3615">MSTY dividends to the same right those. You can afford it. You can afford your taxes.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3620">1:00:20</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3620" data-t="3620">You're you're cry you're living it up right now.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3625" data-t="3625">And it's only getting better. Bitcoin has already won. So, you know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3628" data-t="3628">let's make sure that, the samurai guys</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3632" data-t="3632">are in prison when, you know, when when we're out here winning.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3636" data-t="3636">It's not fair.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3638">1:00:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3638" data-t="3638">I I think it's more than that, though. I I think it's like, the samurai guys are</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3643" data-t="3643">are cool. I mean, I always found them annoying on Twitter,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3646" data-t="3646">before,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3647" data-t="3647">and I I think a lot of us did.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3651" data-t="3651">But it's not about that. It's it's about</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3654" data-t="3654">one, there is two things. It's about actually being productive</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3658">1:00:58</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3658" data-t="3658">in in holding</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3660" data-t="3660">these people that try and restrict our smoking rights</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3663" data-t="3663">accountable</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3665" data-t="3665">and and not allowing them to just, like, run over people. Like, you know, being annoying on Twitter</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3672" data-t="3672">is is not a reason to go to Twitter.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3674" data-t="3674">Or it's hard to go to prison. We shouldn't we shouldn't put Why</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3678">1:01:18</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3678" data-t="3678">put We shouldn't put Shinobi in prison. We shouldn't put Shinobi or Justin Bachelor or a lot of these guys in prison just because they're annoying in Twitter. And, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3687" data-t="3687">I think the reason why it's important we're doing this</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3691" data-t="3691">is we're trying to we're trying to raise awareness</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3694" data-t="3694">around,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3696" data-t="3696">one, a productive way to deal with these people.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3699" data-t="3699">We're following the Scientologist playbook.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3702">1:01:42</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3702" data-t="3702">They're the ones that really really set the the standard. What you do is you you fund Jewish lawyers to go after these people</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3709" data-t="3709">and,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3710" data-t="3710">you know, muddle up their laws,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3714" data-t="3714">and and eventually get them to submit. And they will submit eventually if you have enough energy behind it and noise.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3721" data-t="3721">The reason why I support them we're doing this is because Podkoff isn't.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3725" data-t="3725">Podkoff isn't supporting,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3728">1:02:08</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3728" data-t="3728">this or promoting it. You know? It's there's there's not</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3731" data-t="3731">a ton of engagement</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3736" data-t="3736">in supporting these guys. It it is kind of a meme, like, let's let's help the samurai guys,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3741" data-t="3741">you know, yada yada yada.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3744">1:02:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3744" data-t="3744">I I think like the other day, they'd rather hang out with hot politicians like Cynthia Lummis.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3749" data-t="3749">Yeah. That's really what it ultimately boils down to. They wanna go to the party. They wanna hang out with hot politicians.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3755" data-t="3755">They wanna hang out with Ted Cruz.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3757" data-t="3757">They wanna hang out with the Trump Trump's fail you know, his adult sons.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3762" data-t="3762">And they wanna talk about fucking shit coins and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3765" data-t="3765">stable coins with politicians and and Trump's adult sons. They don't wanna talk about samurai.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3771">1:02:51</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3771" data-t="3771">They are ashamed of samurai because samurai</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3774" data-t="3774">are some of the biggest orange cells,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3776" data-t="3776">on Twitter,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3777" data-t="3777">you know, and probably in meetups. Like, it's when you go to a conference and there's, like, a dude</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3782" data-t="3782">dressed like a freaking ninja and like you can't even see his eyes like he's he's so it's like the you are an influencer</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3790" data-t="3790">somebody's gonna know who you are just because anyways my point that's an orange sale</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3796">1:03:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3796" data-t="3796">But who's really bringing the most who's really brought the most value</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3801" data-t="3801">or,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3803" data-t="3803">just</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3805" data-t="3805">who's really been better for Bitcoin? It's definitely CMRI over a senator or a politician</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3811" data-t="3811">or, you know, Trump's adult sons.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3815">1:03:35</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3815" data-t="3815">Yep.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3816">1:03:36</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3816" data-t="3816">It's like the family thing.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3818" data-t="3818">I I I'm glad you brought it up, Greaser. I I I remember the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3822" data-t="3822">there's kind of like the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3824" data-t="3824">wasabi,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3826" data-t="3826">samurai wars, and and the samurai were definitely the the dirtier.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3830" data-t="3830">And,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3833">1:03:53</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3833" data-t="3833">well,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3834" data-t="3834">let's just stick with that for the moment,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3837" data-t="3837">side of that. And a lot of people dislike them because of that. But that's the kind of thing is, one day we can go from from,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3846" data-t="3846">kind of hating on our our our dirty</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3849" data-t="3849">people that we see on Twitter to the next day, they they the government moves against them, and it's time for us to put up the fight and say,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3858" data-t="3858">you can't you can't do that to these people that we that we hate. There are people that we hate,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3864">1:04:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3864" data-t="3864">and and they have the right to be hated, and we're gonna do something about it.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3868">1:04:28</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3868" data-t="3868">Yeah. I mean, it's like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3870" data-t="3870">if if we don't put our our foot down and we say that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3874" data-t="3874">we're just like, let let the annoying people on Twitter, you know, go to prison</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3880" data-t="3880">for for stupid made up reasons</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3883" data-t="3883">just because we didn't like them because they were annoying on Twitter,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3886" data-t="3886">we'll we'll devolve into The UK.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3889">1:04:49</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3889" data-t="3889">Next thing you know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3891" data-t="3891">people are getting put in jail for memes,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3894" data-t="3894">and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3895" data-t="3895">there there really is a slip slippery slope with this stuff. Like, the the reason why these people, you know, haven't already accomplished all of this stuff</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3903" data-t="3903">in being able to ban good memes,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3906" data-t="3906">being able to ban good cultural things,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3910">1:05:10</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3910" data-t="3910">it is not because</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3913" data-t="3913">they lack</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3915" data-t="3915">the the guns to do it,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3918" data-t="3918">But because people put their foot down in the sand</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3921" data-t="3921">and say, no.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3922" data-t="3922">Screw you. We're hiring Jewish lawyers and suing the shit out of you.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3927">1:05:27</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3927" data-t="3927">And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3929" data-t="3929">you know, we're gonna continue to to do things this way anyways. And it's just like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3936" data-t="3936">it's it's cool to use Bitcoin.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3939" data-t="3939">It's really cool to use Bitcoin. And Yeah. There really is a future that we're looking at right now</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3946">1:05:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3946" data-t="3946">where we're not Don't judge all Bitcoiners by Joe Nakamoto. Right?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3950" data-t="3950">It's actually cool to use Bitcoin. It's not. You know what I mean?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3955">1:05:55</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3955" data-t="3955">Yeah. Like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3957" data-t="3957">I I'm not really satisfied</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3960" data-t="3960">with the only way of me being able to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3963" data-t="3963">go and and buy cigarettes being USDT</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3967" data-t="3967">in the future. That's that's not really what I'm rooting for personally. I wanna use Bicco to buy my cigarettes.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3974" data-t="3974">And</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3980">1:06:20</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3980" data-t="3980">No. I think It's a step towards, the death of journalism. Free journalism is what it sounds like. Yeah. And you guys are are the icons of that.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3987" data-t="3987">And</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3988">1:06:28</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3988" data-t="3988">I I wanted to add to this because there's I think there's one more team up, you know, that might just be skeptical of what we're doing here. And it's</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3996" data-t="3996">samurai the big things the MRI are fed. So it's, you know, just because somebody's a fed, if they're a Bitcoiner,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4002" data-t="4002">we're still going to help them as long as the they're being charged with, you know, and something that's</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4009" data-t="4009">fundamental to us.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4011" data-t="4011">Like, it's not that they're feds. It's not that they're annoying. It's their it's that we don't want the precedent to be set that, like, doing</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4017" data-t="4017">a basic,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4020">1:06:60</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4020" data-t="4020">expressing a basic</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4022" data-t="4022">human fundamental right</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4024" data-t="4024">granted to you by God the creator of the universe whatever,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4028" data-t="4028">and that's why</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4030" data-t="4030">I think I would we talked about this earlier,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4032" data-t="4032">I where we did with Zach and Frank, which was</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4035">1:07:15</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4035" data-t="4035">this stuff is so complicated and abstract</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4039" data-t="4039">that in, you get to in front of a jury or some boomer judge,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4043" data-t="4043">they don't understand that stuff. They do not</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4046" data-t="4046">fundamentally, they don't follow. So these clever, I mean, that the government doesn't do very much well, but what they do well is they litigate and they prosecute in courts,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4057" data-t="4057">especially criminal courts and financial crimes. So you've got very, very intelligent, very high</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4063" data-t="4063">high high IQ, high level operators,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4067">1:07:47</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4067" data-t="4067">they are defining, they are</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4070" data-t="4070">using their their law jargon memes</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4073" data-t="4073">to guide</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4074" data-t="4074">a judge or a jury who just they're not gonna think for themselves. None of these judges don't smoke cigarettes.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4079" data-t="4079">And juries, a lot of them are in theses, they they a lot of them think like Mike Brock. And</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4085" data-t="4085">but at least now I hope</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4088">1:08:08</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4088" data-t="4088">that thanks to Dennis Porter</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4090" data-t="4090">and all these bills that he's gotten passed to all these states, these people will have heard that it is your right to self custody Bitcoin. It is your right to transact</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4100" data-t="4100">and run your own node,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4101" data-t="4101">and it is it is your right to have a,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4104" data-t="4104">a hardware wallet that you heard you bought from a podcast.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4107" data-t="4107">And</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4108">1:08:28</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4108" data-t="4108">maybe that will get through them and it will it will prevent it'll</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4113" data-t="4113">balance</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4114" data-t="4114">the the scales of justice a little bit more that everybody knows Dennis Porter has already fought for our right to own Bitcoin and to self conceived Bitcoin and to transact on chain.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4124" data-t="4124">So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4125" data-t="4125">maybe,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4126" data-t="4126">you know, maybe</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4128">1:08:48</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4128" data-t="4128">we should it's it's too early to be a doomer. Totally. Well, I think it's it's about, you know, what whether we have permission to do these things or not. Like, we have the moral right to do them</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4139" data-t="4139">at the end of the day.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4140" data-t="4140">And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4142" data-t="4142">you know, when when I look at things like this, when I look at people just getting dragged through the mud like the samurai guys are with stupid</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4150" data-t="4150">chargers that don't make any sense,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4153" data-t="4153">when I look at that,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4156">1:09:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4156" data-t="4156">I I just think, what if that was me?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4159" data-t="4159">You know? What if that was me a few years from now</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4164" data-t="4164">and people just kinda twiddle their thumbs and didn't do anything about it?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4168" data-t="4168">I don't wanna be one of those people that's just like twiddling my thumbs and not doing anything about it. I wanna be one of the people that would be taking care of me. Because there's a very real possibility, and I know this has happened to people</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4181" data-t="4181">that don't have as much meme power behind them, that didn't pay a bunch of designers to make, you know, cool branding,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4188" data-t="4188">that's easy to to promote in the future,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4191">1:09:51</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4191" data-t="4191">and and have a catchy slogan, free samurai.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4198" data-t="4198">Like, that that could be That is a cool slogan, though. It is a cool Free samurai.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4203" data-t="4203">They they definitely got that going for them. The memes are cool. Look at Jeremy's shirt. That's a cool shirt.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4208">1:10:08</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4208" data-t="4208">Yeah. I I accidentally put this on today. I only realized it when I sat down and do the podcast. Can you can you imagine free wasabi? That just sounds too goofy. Like, you don't even take your stairs. Nobody's gonna put free wasabi</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4219">1:10:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4219" data-t="4219">in their nostril profile. It's if they did,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4223" data-t="4223">somebody would just well, did they just make a meme with, like, a sushi restaurant? I don't know. It just it wouldn't have worked. But free samurai</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4229" data-t="4229">I mean, you put a a free samurai,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4232" data-t="4232">like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4233" data-t="4233">on an Ungovernable Misfits t shirt. Dude, that's selling out first hour. It's on there. Yeah. Free wasabi sounds like something that a Japanese guy yells before he climaxes.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4243">1:10:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4243" data-t="4243">That's not something that would do well.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4245">1:10:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4245" data-t="4245">I mean, it sounds like Yeah.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4248" data-t="4248">Yeah. I mean, I'm pretty sure most of the the sushi restaurants give out free wasabi anyways. Yeah. People just think it's, like, some sort of marketing ploy to get people to eat more,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4258" data-t="4258">uncooked fish or something. Like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4260" data-t="4260">it's</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4262">1:11:02</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4262" data-t="4262">Instead of steak.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4263">1:11:03</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4263" data-t="4263">I mean, the meme is good. So so maybe that's something to think about. It's like, you know, maybe we should all,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4268" data-t="4268">be, focusing on our brands and memes so that if and when we're put in jail, it's easier to raise money for our Jewish,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4276">1:11:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4276" data-t="4276">lawyer defense fund. Yeah. The cyberpunks,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4279" data-t="4279">you know, they're heralded for being these, tech gurus who who kinda stood up for free rights. And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4287" data-t="4287">in some interviews, they said that it was actually the memes were the most effective. They would get together there in in Berkeley or wherever they were at and, and try and decide on what they should do. And it was the meme warfare,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4300" data-t="4300">that kind of won for him.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4302" data-t="4302">And I wanted to bring up you guys both kind of, touched on,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4305" data-t="4305">like,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4306">1:11:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4306" data-t="4306">imagining yourself in these shoes and,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4309" data-t="4309">who's actually doing something about it. And we've kinda the correlation has been made to, the state versus Zimmerman two point o. That's kind of like what what the samurai case is. And something that Zimmerman said was that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4322" data-t="4322">once the media</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4324" data-t="4324">realized that that that was a case about free speech, that that was a case about,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4330" data-t="4330">code is speech,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4333" data-t="4333">For them, obviously,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4334">1:12:14</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4334" data-t="4334">they need speech. You you guys know. You you know the media needs speech.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4340" data-t="4340">And they got all of he said, once they realized that, he he had interviews every single day. Every single news station got in on it. They all started</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4349" data-t="4349">pushing, the free speech narrative out into the public. They went over the public, like, overnight.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4355" data-t="4355">And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4356" data-t="4356">and this is, I think, a similar thing, but because Bitcoin is harder to understand,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4361" data-t="4361">there's now that mental barrier. I think Zach did a really good job painting that picture that for, like, this judge,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4367">1:12:47</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4367" data-t="4367">coming down to him having to figure out what Bitcoin is. And then you have mechanic out there,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4373" data-t="4373">stomping all over the idea that Bitcoin is is,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4377" data-t="4377">is speech.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4379" data-t="4379">There's a lot going against this at this moment, and all we need is that tipping point,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4383" data-t="4383">where we can finally, you know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4387" data-t="4387">have people realize this is a matter of speech and freedom and expression.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4391">1:13:11</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4391" data-t="4391">Thank God, Craig. Thank God mechanic has a funny talker accent because I feel like he had, like, a really</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4398" data-t="4398">confident,</span> <span class="cue" data-t="4398">masculine American accent, and he was arguing</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4402" data-t="4402">this shit.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4403" data-t="4403">Do you want to take it more seriously? But when he comes out of this, it's like, we're not taking any more advice</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4408" data-t="4408">from the funny talkers. We're done with advice from the funny talker. I hope that is, I hope that saves us.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4415">1:13:35</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Jeremy Poley</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4415" data-t="4415">Yeah. I I I do think let's say the judge actually does decide to listen to a podcast, and right now, you you can't, you can't</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4424" data-t="4424">fall and miss a podcast with mechanic in it.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4427" data-t="4427">A good American judge, he's gonna hear that accent and immediately just throw out everything that he's saying. So It is.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4434">1:13:54</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4434" data-t="4434">Yeah. It is crazy, like, The U U The U The UK Government is banning and making memes illegal,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4441" data-t="4441">and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4443" data-t="4443">mechanic is trying to make him illegal on on on Shane. And it's like, why do you why do British people hate memes so much?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4452" data-t="4452">Mhmm. Why do they hate me speak so much? Why do they hate me? Why is he helping the</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4458" data-t="4458">the English? Like, I mean, we all know what the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4462" data-t="4462">the royal family is all about and what they what they like to do,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4467">1:14:27</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4467" data-t="4467">over there. And the government, they're they're even worse. And why is he why is he trying to ban memes and free speech while he's trying to help them? This sounds like a case for the bugle.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4476">1:14:36</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4476" data-t="4476">I think the easy answer to that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4478" data-t="4478">is, you know, America essentially got its independence from memes.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4483" data-t="4483">They meme the British to death.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4486" data-t="4486">And this is just like the the</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4488" data-t="4488">overarching issue over and over again, is that incumbent</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4492" data-t="4492">typically isn't good at memeing.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4495">1:14:55</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4495" data-t="4495">That's one of the advantages</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4497" data-t="4497">kind of the dissident,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4500" data-t="4500">groups have over the incumbent,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4504" data-t="4504">authoritarian</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4505" data-t="4505">in charge.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4506" data-t="4506">Is that they're they're they're</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4509">1:15:09</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4509" data-t="4509">because what makes a meme effective</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4512" data-t="4512">is having truth in it. If you if you spin a meme</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4516" data-t="4516">that is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4518" data-t="4518">completely</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4520" data-t="4520">rooted in just like nonsense,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4523" data-t="4523">it's not it's not gonna take off. It's not gonna resonate with people. Because even even the most,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4531">1:15:31</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4531" data-t="4531">even the most retarded nicotine deficient m p c</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4536" data-t="4536">will resonate at least a little bit with the truth when they see it.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4540">1:15:40</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4540" data-t="4540">Right.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4541" data-t="4541">Right.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4543" data-t="4543">Yeah. If you build, right?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4545">1:15:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4545" data-t="4545">Yeah. I mean, if you're propagating, like, a meme, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4552" data-t="4552">that,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4554">1:15:54</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4554" data-t="4554">No. This is this is what this is exactly what I was gonna say is,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4558" data-t="4558">if you think</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4559" data-t="4559">non KYC cigarettes, if you think we're being silly or like you think we're joking, we're not joking, right? Because if you think that's silly,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4567" data-t="4567">the American Revolution started over non KYC tea.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4572" data-t="4572">They they they they burned it to the ground. They didn't want they wanted non KYC</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4576" data-t="4576">caffeine in the morning. That's all they want.</span></span></p> +