0:02Richard Greaser Alrighty, folks. We are live. Let's see if it's pushing to all the socials. It looks like it should be should be posting the Zapdos stream. It's always interesting to see if the streaming works out. It is hard to do a live stream from a typewriter. Alright. We're we're live on Zap. Stream, but the stream is named incorrectly. It's named test. That's kind of annoying. This is not a test, folks. This is the real deal. We're live today with Zach Shapiro and Frank Korva,

0:39Richard Greaser two fine folks that have been very involved with the, samurai wallet, case. They are going to be participating in our event in Vegas. The satirize the system event is the premier event,

0:55Richard Greaser to go to in Vegas. I personally think it's the only reason to be in Vegas. But I'm excited to have you guys here, talk about what's going on with the samurai wallet case right now. Right now, the folks that we pay taxes to to tell us where we can't smoke are

1:19Richard Greaser really screwing with these guys and they have some reasons why they're scorable with them, but they don't really seem like very legitimate reasons. So,

1:31Rod Palmer yeah. Well, first of all, I I just wanted before we get into this, I wanna congratulate Frank. Frank just got his credentials. Do you wanna talk about that, Frank? This is a huge day. This is like this is I am experiencing incredible film. Alright. Yeah.

1:47Frank Corva Yeah. I'm here at, here in the train station or union station in DC. You know, it's it's an exciting day. We we we, we all love credentials in this space. We know how important credentials are. We know how much you guys appreciate them. So it's exciting to announce them. Yeah. We we value them. That's right. But, yeah, we have a we have a Big Pointer in the White House. So we have a Bitcoin Magazine got its hard pass to the White House today. They've been helping us out with soft passes to certain events, but I'll be, reporting from there more frequently now speaking with, members of the admin and cabinet in-depth. It's comparable similar to what I just did with, secretary Lutnick and,

2:27Frank Corva and and Bo Hines who has the longest title in the history of, government titles, maybe titles anywhere. But, yeah, exciting days. Here's to credentials.

2:38Richard Greaser Are you are you excited to hang out with Caroline Lovett? She's pretty hot.

2:45Frank Corva She's a good looking lady. Yes. I've I've see I've seen her around the few times that I've been here. Excited to definitely maybe maybe smoke cigarettes with her. We'll we'll see. We'll see what happens.

2:55Richard Greaser Is is David Bailey gonna allow her to go to the White House and call her retarded? Or let sorry. Let Shinobi go to the White House and call her retarded.

3:04Frank Corva Oh, didn't you guys just publish something about how Shinobi is sexist? He doesn't call women retarded. He only calls yeah. But

3:10Rod Palmer only if they're Republican.

3:12Frank Corva Okay. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Shinobi likes the lefties. He won't he won't call the the leftist woman retarded. That's right. Yeah.

3:20Zack Shapiro I mean, Shihtobe has long Shihtobe's all all long been all in on DI, so that's not,

3:26Rod Palmer He has. He was he's like a hipster. He was into DI before they even called it DEI, I think.

3:33Richard Greaser He was a first adopter. No. Mover.

3:36Frank Corva Got got into DEI before he got into Bitcoin.

3:41Jeremy Poley Now he's bringing, his DEI to the, the mempool. He's he's polluted polluted it with DEI everywhere.

3:51Rod Palmer Does the does the White House are you allowed to smoke in the White House? Do they have a smoking section or, like, a a a smoke pit on the property that you can, you can hang out with, talk to Bitcoin podcasts with, you know, White House members and employees?

4:06Frank Corva This is, I haven't seen it yet, but it's something worth bringing up if they don't have it. So I think, they seem pretty receptive to whatever we've suggested thus far. So I think we could probably get something like this accomplished if it if it doesn't exist already.

4:19Richard Greaser Yeah. I think a lot of people have been concerned about RFK being a LARP and this kind of like his moment to prove himself in the Make America Healthy Again agenda. Will he promote smoking or not? Is he actually the real deal or is he just a LARP like Jack Crews? You know, he's been going around calling all these people out for being, kinda pretend make America healthy people.

4:47Frank Corva Would he have to recommend one, like, that we all smoke American spirits, like cigarettes that don't have any sort of, additives or anything like that?

4:55Richard Greaser Well, I mean, I think a good one would be, repealing all the BS FDA requirements on what they put in cigarettes, but, I think just promoting the smoking of cigarettes in general would be good. A lot of people like to talk about the mental health crisis, but nobody really likes

5:14Richard Greaser to actually present any real solutions to it. And we all know that mental health issues would be completely eliminated, like, tomorrow in America if smoking was encouraged, read nine rand, listen to Bitcoin podcast.

5:32Frank Corva It's a it's a winning formula. It's worked it's worked worked for, at least you and I. I'm sure a lot of others would benefit out. A lot of others out there would benefit from it as well.

5:42Jeremy Poley Sounds like the formula for, Mike brought Kryptonite right there. You've got first, you've got RFK, starts as a prized democratic Brockian person, goes to the other side,

5:57Jeremy Poley pisses him off, and now you have him legalizing cigarettes, which Mike Brock still doesn't understand the health benefits of. I think that's just like a triple folded sandwich

6:09Rod Palmer right there. Oh, yeah.

6:11Zack Shapiro Luckily, I I think he also wants to legalize MDMA, which will help with the the overall mood.

6:17Rod Palmer That that will definitely lift the vibes for sure. Now before before we get back into the samurai stuff, just for a little more context. So Frank is now he just got his White House credentials. He's gonna be there reporting, doing journalism from ground zero. And, Zach, you are

6:35Rod Palmer orange peeling the politicians. And I'm curious about that experience. What is what has it been like so far entering the Trump administration? Has it been receptive? And how are there enough politicians that haven't been orange filled by Dennis Porter already for to keep you busy? Or do you have or is this giving you more time for Bitcoin podcast?

6:58Zack Shapiro Look. I'm always appreciative of, Dennis Porter's, efforts at at giving me more time for for Bitcoin podcast. But, yeah, the look. BBI's main mission is, education in DC, and, you know, there's there's a big difference between being supportive and and being educated. And so, you know, in that in that respect,

7:18Zack Shapiro there are other Bitcoin policy groups that I think are are giving us more more work. And and so I don't think we're gonna run out of, politicians to to have to explain, Bitcoin and the nuances around noncustodial tools and good stuff like that too.

7:33Rod Palmer What do you also what's it like when you fit when you thought you've educated an orange tool, the politician, and then you go on the timeline and you see that they're they're pumping meme coins or they're into crypto or calling it digital assets. You're like, oh, we just went over this yesterday. We just went over this, and you're already doing shit coins. Like, is that frustrating?

7:53Zack Shapiro I think everyone needs to to do that, and and I really applaud the, the the at least they're they're gonna speed run it. Right? If everyone's gonna come out of Bitcoin maximalist at the end, the fact that we've got a presidential meme coin and DeFi and, you know, I assume we're soon gonna tokenize, Middle Eastern jets. We're gonna get to the end result sooner that way.

8:16Richard Greaser Interesting. Well, the, you know, the average age of these politicians you're probably working with in orange peeling is, like, 85. You know? So, like, what what's this process of orange peeling them look like? You have to go meet them at Comet Ping Pong and then, like, teach them how to use their iPhone and, like, how to how to download an app from the App Store? Do you have to get their, like, grandchildren involved? Or or what what's that process look like? Comet Comet pizzas is no longer a a safe space. So they're now mostly private dinner parties at at,

8:49Zack Shapiro John Podesta's house. And then, we discuss, you know, what is Bitcoin? Why is it not a scam? You know, usually, David Bailey has a lot to say at that point. And then, you know, they it usually ends with them buying some amount of of Shiba Inu. But, again, we're speedrunning the process.

9:11Richard Greaser Very interesting.

9:14Jeremy Poley Funny you bring up John. John Podesta. Sorry. He, ties back into samurai in that he was a part of the Clinton administration. And,

9:28Jeremy Poley he was actually, before that, a lobbyist for corporate encryption. And then what does the Clinton, cabinet do? They turn against Zimmerman

9:41Jeremy Poley and Daniel Bernstein, and, and it feels like we're just doing that all over again. And and what do you know? There's John Podesta out there. Private dinner parties.

9:50Rod Palmer He's buying pizza with Monero.

9:54Zack Shapiro Yeah. I I mean, look. We we are doing the, Crypto Wars two point o with the with the samurai wallet and tornado cash cases. And so there's a lot of sort of fun nineties history, we can bring back. And, also, the other thing John Podesta is known for is is being a very serious advocate for UFO disclosure, which is now very much back in vogue, especially with our esteemed, executive director of the Bitcoin Policy Institute.

10:23Rod Palmer So with the samurai case, it one of the problems, one of the issues is by the time this stuff hits the news, the the media, the government, the federal prosecutors, they're able to set the the narrative and like frame it the conversation, in the in the kind of terms where that is allowed to be talked about but something me and Richard

10:47Rod Palmer really struggle with is, and we're just curious about your thoughts is from a first person to be just ethically in a democracy. Should it be illegal? Should you be punished for laundering money for the CIA? If we as a democratic society have voted for these politicians, support these a democratic society, you know, on the blockchain.

11:19Rod Palmer If CMRI is being accused of doing this, how is that even a crime? They are they are protecting democracy. You know, they're helping the government. So why are they getting in trouble?

11:33Zack Shapiro So I think there's a there's a misunderstanding here about whether this is about fairness and and the rule of law. If you're familiar with CIA history, they're they're very big into their rituals. There's some amount of, human sacrifice that that is just a a necessary element in all of this. And the basic legal theory of the samurai wallet case is that we really wish, there was a bank or some sort of financial institution you could hold responsible, for people doing stuff we don't like with Bitcoin. That doesn't exist. And so, essentially, we need to find a human sacrifice. And so it's not really that so much that the the developers

12:14Zack Shapiro did anything wrong from a a legal perspective by offering the software. It's really more of a a a gentle offering to Moloch.

12:21Frank Corva And I think one of the original charges was, saying the quiet part out loud, which we knew the samurai guys like to do. That charge has since been dropped, so they needed to sort of, press some other charges in in in light of them dropping that charge.

12:34Rod Palmer What is what are these charges? And, like, what is what is the overall crime or wrongdoing that the government is prosecuting samurai for? Like, it's it's not using mixers. It's not this like, what is it? Like, all what does it boil down to?

12:52Zack Shapiro There there are two crimes that are alleged here. The first is conspiracy to commit money laundering, which really is saying the quiet part out loud. That is what they're being charged with. Specifically, the charge is you said stuff, that makes it sound like you're insufficiently, upset about people using your your tools, for nefarious purposes. And and the, you know, the defendants here, court of government, did say some things about knowing that the gray or black market might use these tools. Never mind the fact that the gray or black market may totally well refer to situations like, human rights advocates in Russia who need to be able to accept Bitcoin privately, or women in Afghanistan who can't get access to bank accounts and so are violating local laws by using Bitcoin, through private transactions using CoinJoin. And then the other crime is unlicensed operation of

13:40Zack Shapiro a money transmission or money service business. And here, the license would have been with a part of the government called FinCEN, a part of the treasury department, which has now come out and said, that they would not have thought that this is money transmission. So there is sort of a Kafka's quality of you didn't get a license with someone who wasn't gonna give you a license, and, you know, that's the other reason you go to prison. But but those are the two charges.

14:05Frank Corva But oddly enough especially Oh, I was gonna add a little nuance to that. But oddly enough, it's the it's the DOJ. The government has the right to say which FinCEN members are qualified to say these things and which don't. So in the most recent letter, you essentially had the government saying, well, these people at FinCEN weren't, like, the people we needed to be speaking with at FinCEN, which begs which the the the people who would make the final decision on this at FinCEN, essentially, which is sort of ironic. It's like, well, why didn't you just call those people then? Why did you end up choosing these two people? And the the other funny part there is, like, when you look at the titles for these two people, I forget them off the top of my head, Zach. You might know them, but they sounded like some pretty official titles, like the type of people you would call to get this sort of information.

14:48Zack Shapiro Yeah. It was a policy person and an enforcement person who's generally the people at FinCEN who would who would know this. But but there's been, like, several rounds of gaslighting. First, it's this is what FinCEN meant, and then it's it doesn't matter what FinCEN meant. And then it's we were just having a conversation with two of our pals, and what they said doesn't really count. It looks like based on what happened today in the Trejo cash case, like, the government is going to drop a specific subpart of one of the charges, having to do specifically

15:20Zack Shapiro with FinCEN's characterization of CoinJoin, which is a meaningful step in the right direction. And so they're left with, the other charge, which is the defendants knew that criminals would use the tool, and they maintained a tool by which they transmitted funds. And it still runs into this problem of you're charging people with transmitting funds that they didn't transmit. But, you know, we're we're slowly moving away from any kind of argument that FinCEN,

15:48Rod Palmer would have considered this to be something that needed a license. Yeah. None of this stuff actually makes sense to anybody anyway. So you'd like the crime doesn't have to make sense. Like, they don't have to actually have done what the government says they did because none of this is real, and nobody really understands it, especially not a judge or a jury, some 70 bunch year old. Right? So they can just be, like, a bunch, you know, it's kinda like a mechanic talking to, you know, a customer, not mechanic, the the one from Ocean who, is apparently, you know, using a bunch of jargon to fool people by off, the ones at, like, the auto mechanic.

16:24Rod Palmer So that's they've got that on their side, and it's very difficult to gauge how much something matters based on how much the government spends in US Dollar terms because that's just, like, so, perverted now. Like, you can't get any information from that buyer. You can tell by which credentials they throw at the at the case. Like, who are the people? What credentials? What, credentials are they built upon here? Like, they go to an Ivy League school. Is it this department? This attorney? Yeah.

16:57Rod Palmer If they're throwing certain types of credentials, you you could tell they are serious about winning for some reason.

17:06Zack Shapiro Yeah. Although you don't get really you had to you'll get to be an SDY prosecutor unless you have those credentials. So this is this is the office that really, you know, they they decide that they are the smartest people in the room, and and they famously take a very broad view of their jurisdiction. The problem is when it really gets to deep technical issues where for the first time in human history, we have electronic peer to peer transactions, and then it turns out having gone to Harvard Law School just isn't that helpful in in figuring out how the Bank Secrecy Act applies.

17:38Frank Corva Speaking of, let's not say credentials, but maybe experience, Zach, one of the things that doesn't get talked about too much, was recently brought to my attention who this judge is, what other cases he has tried, what he's well known for. Am I mistaken? Have I heard wrong that this judge was actually the judge that tried the Epstein case? Am I am I wrong about this?

17:58Zack Shapiro Oh, interesting. I I I actually don't know that. I'm nine 99%.

18:02Rod Palmer I'm sure Whitney Webb said it on a podcast.

18:06Frank Corva Yeah. Had to have been that. Had to have been that. I think it was actually Shinobi, to be honest, out of all people that did this research and let me know. But, you know, Shinobi, he might have been in, like, a a fit of rage calling people retarded and just maybe blurted that out as well. I'm not sure.

18:21Rod Palmer Every once in a while, he gets one right.

18:24Zack Shapiro Yeah. In 2019, judge ends, case against Epstein with a nod to the accusers.

18:30Frank Corva And So maybe not. Yeah.

18:32Zack Shapiro And the courthouse where Let's just assume it's a total coincidence. To the is attached to the jail where Epstein definitely killed himself.

18:39Rod Palmer Let's just assume that's all a coincidence because we have no we have we can only speculate that that's all you know, the so let's assume it's all a coincidence. Alright. We know that the judge, tried Epstein. There's nothing weird. We know a lot of things. There's nothing we could do about a buyer. Does that change the approach?

18:58Rod Palmer Do you stop trying to use the moral high ground or, like, this is the book of constitution said, or do you start or do you start getting a little more creative with how you approach this? Because you're not gonna win just because it's the technically, like, moral or legal thing to do. That's out the window.

19:18Frank Corva So does that change how you think about it? Well, we got I kinda wanna put maybe I wanna put that one back on you. So we have the Blanche memo as well. For those who are not familiar with this, we had the deputy, sorry, The US deputy attorney general put out a memo in April. It was over the beginning of April. Forget the date. Maybe April April 10 or something, you know, in which he stated that this administration is no longer going to go after, you know, mixers and and and other things related to what we call freedom check here. So it's a little bit interesting. It it you know, it's part of me thinks, like, is that some sort of is it some sort of and I don't think this is the case, but, you know, it's something that crossed my mind. Is it, like,

19:59Frank Corva you know, was it conveniently sort of put out after the fact where maybe legal precedent could be established in the samurai case and the tornado cash case? And then at the same time, it sort of looks like the the administration's being friendly to people building this sort of technology by putting out this memo. But the big question seems to be, and it has come up in the, the correspondence between the prosecution, the dissents, and the court or the letters that they that both sides have submitted, the Blanche memo has come up a lot. And it's and especially especially the defense seems to think that that's ground to throw out grounds to throw out the money transmitter charges. I'm not sure if I have that exactly right, Zach, but it's I read the last letter they sent yesterday, and they do mention this specifically.

20:39Zack Shapiro Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, they they, I think, rightly viewed as grounds to throw out the whole case, that this case is going after. The the Blanche memo says, in addition to the specifics about these charges and mixers and tumblers, which by the way, samurai wallet was not a mixer or a tumbler. I I don't think we need to concede this ground to the government. It's a coin join. A mixer or a tumbler is a custodial tool usually on the dark web, you know, where you try and buy, weird marijuana that comes in brick form, but you don't wanna use your KYC coinbase wallet. And so you send it to a guy, and he sends you other Bitcoin, and then you use that. That's not what a coin join is. A coin join is a bunch of people spending Bitcoin at the same time. And what the samurai wallet devs created is a wallet that helps you find other people that wanna participate in those collaborative transactions. So the Blanche memo talks about mixers and tumblers, but that's that's not what it was.

21:31Zack Shapiro But the blanch memo specifically says we are not going to hold developers responsible for the acts of their users. And all of these charges, even beyond just the money transmission charges, are are exactly about that. If you're saying that someone entered into a conspiracy to commit money laundering by offering a tool, and, yes, maybe you you did some, unfortunate tweets in around that tool that,

21:56Zack Shapiro that that is holding the developer responsible for the act of the user any any way you slice it. And so that, I think, is the main relevance of the Blanche memo. It looks like we at least got an answer in Tornado Cash that the government has decided that their prosecution is going to move forward. They've officially decided, notwithstanding the Blanche memo, and they just got rid of one of these minor slices here of the charges, and the rest of them are going forward to trial in July. But, I think a more like, the spirit of the Blanche memo

22:27Zack Shapiro not even the spirit. The spirit and the letter of the Blanche memo is that there shouldn't be these types of of cases.

22:34Jeremy Poley Zach, it feels like this is a trial already happening before the trial. It's this little back and forth of this should be thrown out. No. It shouldn't. How much is this actually, like, how much weight do you actually give these to actually force, the judge to decide against throwing the case out or or forcing them to drop it as opposed to how much is this just, like,

22:59Jeremy Poley maybe it's, quote, unquote, normal pretrial, like, you know, intimidation

23:04Frank Corva or something like that. Hey, Jack. Can I add just one thing there quickly, if you don't mind? Just something from being in the courtroom for the for the four or five different pretrial hearings that have existed thus far. The prosecution in each of the hearings had well, not the last one, but in the first three, was quite aggressive to the point where the judge actually had to say, like, okay, guys. Enough. Like, essentially saving for the trial. Like, you're you're getting ahead of yourselves by starting to make certain arguments. So just wanted to add that as context that thus far, the the the government has pushed pretty hard, and the judge has sort of told them to calm down in person.

23:38Zack Shapiro Well, I actually think the judges maybe more done that in the other direction. So it's not just wrangling or or whatever. The in the American legal system, judges decide issues of law and juries decide issues of fact. And the most important part of all of this is is the issue of law and not fact. It's it's does the Bank Secrecy Act somehow apply to peer to peer transactions where there's not a financial institution in the middle of a transaction? If we don't have a bank or a, you know, money transmission business or

24:11Zack Shapiro whatever, that we can regulate, are we just gonna punish the people who wrote the software that allow individuals to move their money around? And that is not a factual question. It is a factual question whether these statements that the Tornado Cash Debs made on Twitter amount to a criminal money laundering conspiracy. And, hopefully, a jury will laugh that out of the room, but, the the legal threshold questions are are super important. And,

24:38Zack Shapiro you know, when Frank and I were last in the courtroom together, the defense counsel was trying to bring this to the judge's attention and say, hey. We're about to go through a bunch of really expensive discovery. There is this important threshold question of, does the Bank Secrecy Act apply here regardless of whatever evidence the government does or does not have, regardless of all of the facts the government is saying. Let's say they're all true and a and a jury is gonna find all those facts in favor of the government. Just as a legal matter, you can't bring these charges because of the way the Bank Secrecy Act works. And so before we spend all this time and money on discovery, let's figure this question out. And the judge was like, yeah. I don't wanna deal with multiple, motions here, so we're gonna treat it all as one and and save it for your omnibus, which means, you know, mash together motion later on. And then the judge basically just said that again with the,

25:27Zack Shapiro revelation that the, prosecutors came out with that they talked to Finsen. The defense counsel said, we need to have a hearing so that the prosecutors can, you know, speak for why they didn't disclose this for a year and why they think it's appropriate to move forward with these charges, even once FinCEN said this wasn't money transmission. And, again, the judge was like, yeah. Let's save that for the same, you know, big motion that the defense can do at some point. I I don't wanna have a separate hearing on that. Could just a quick quick question on that note, Zach. You you actually mentioned, I think,

25:56Frank Corva one of the the motions is coming up in about a week and a half. Would that be what the judge was referring to? Essentially, like, if you guys wanna talk about this, you could talk about it and the pretrial motion that's they pushed it back. It was initially scheduled for, yeah, the last Friday, but it'll be a a week from this Friday. Right?

26:11Zack Shapiro Yeah. And it's gonna be all the different motions. It's gonna be the Brady motion. It's gonna be the motion dismissed, which is this legal question. It's gonna be evidentiary motion, motions to exclude things from the trial, what are called motions in limine. So all the legal questions that the judge needs to decide before this moves to a trial.

26:33Richard Greaser Very interesting. I mean, do you think it's reasonable that we should expect the judge to have to at least showcase that he listened to a few Bitcoin podcasts before being eligible to try this trial?

26:48Zack Shapiro Well, rule 16 of of federal criminal procedure doesn't require that, but it does require, him to have come to a firm conclusion on which side of the, opportune debate he's on. What do you think his stance on that is? Look. I this particular judge, I think, is is a big ruins guy. So

27:08Frank Corva Interesting. I also don't I just don't think I think, generally, his stance seems to be that he doesn't like a lot of this, this money, this, this arbitrary data. Well, you know, it's a different kind of arbitrary data in the upper term, but, you know, he's not a big fan of arbitrary data just floating around there without, without sort of, without KYC, AML, without a certain regulatory framework. So I would imagine that, yeah, he'd he'd probably

27:33Frank Corva he'd probably be okay with, with doing away without returns, to be quite sad. Mhmm.

27:39Rod Palmer Yeah. I guess, I think one of the things

27:42Richard Greaser that is exciting about Bitcoin is that it lowers the price of money laundering and it democratizes it. So it's not just like billionaires like, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

27:59Richard Greaser It opens it up to all of us. And, it seems like one of the core battles here is like, you know, the Southern District Of New York believes that in order to be able to have access to money laundering, you need to be

28:16Richard Greaser incredibly wealthy, you need to use the banking system, you need to be able to afford a lot of Jewish accountants.

28:24Zack Shapiro I mean, we'll see where fees go.

28:29Rod Palmer What is what is that what is the term for, like, would you submit, like, a letter or publish something to a court? Not really in support, but you, like, want it to be on the record, so you're submitting it. What's is there a term for that? Do you know what I'm talking about? I I think you're talking about an amicus brief where An amicus brief. Should how do Bitcoiners and Bitcoin podcasters how could we go about submitting an amicus brief that takes and coalesces some of the most important Bitcoin podcasts that have been, you know, interviewed on the on the subject and transcribe those and set those as an amicus brief so that the, you know, that the court has to at least listen to or, you know, read the transcripts of Sailor's series

29:13Rod Palmer before before, you know, continuing with this trial. Yeah.

29:17Zack Shapiro Please don't.

29:20Frank Corva I think I think that's actually only fair in that. I think it was the prosecution. It was the prosecution or the defense that mentioned the amount of terabytes of data that they have would you could stack back and forth to the moon, 22 times or something along those lines. It would be a nonstandard

29:34Rod Palmer it would be a nonstandard size amicus brief for sure. Yeah.

29:38Zack Shapiro But It's it's funny. In the, so I I early in my legal career, I I did clerkships. I worked for federal judges actually in the same building where this is all going down. And one of the judges I worked for was an appellate judge on the, Silk Road case. And one of the important parts of the appeal was did they allow all the defense expert witness. And one of the defense expert witnesses was going to be Roger Ver who wanted to go on stage and just explain the importance of Bitcoin to the jury for I don't know how long. And, the judge found that that was not particularly relevant or or helpful.

30:14Rod Palmer Yeah. That's that's that's what you gotta love about Roger Ver. He's he's he just still buzzed it from the low end of the game even if it's not necessary or helpful.

30:23Zack Shapiro You'd think that, yeah, you'd think the Ross Ulbricht trial was not not the time to do a live Bitcoin podcast. But Exactly.

30:29Richard Greaser That's what the judge seemed to think. Maybe it was the time, who knows? But, I want to hear a little bit about P2P rights. So I learned about P2P rights in Nashville,

30:46Richard Greaser at the conference last year. I was talking to the Ronin Dojo guys. They were explaining to me the whole situation that they're dealing with. That was the first time that I heard about it. I I talked to some of the BPI guys, there, smoked a cigarette with David Zell. It is a very interesting thing. You guys were able to identify that Jewish lawyers are expensive

31:17Richard Greaser and that we need to help Bitcoiners afford them to get fair representation. What is the P2P rights fund about? Why should people look at it? Why should people donate? I'm a donor to it. I've donated a fair amount of my podcast earnings

31:38Richard Greaser to the fund.

31:41Zack Shapiro Yeah. Absolutely. Now let me start by noting that, Ernie, neither of the, principal defense lawyers in Samurai are are Jewish lawyers, and the only Jewish lawyer, deeply involved so far is is myself, and and I've not seen a dime. So, really, I played myself on this one. But, the P2P rights failure. It's it's explicitly not, look. Privacy is really important, but the P2P rights fund is not a about privacy. It is a it's about a very specific, really important issue that we're facing in this moment in time, which is that Satoshi Nakamoto in 2008 invented

32:16Zack Shapiro peer to peer electronic cash. Right? And both the peer to peer part of it and the cash part mean that it is much more like handing a dollar bill, a physical paper bill from one person to another than it is like sending a Venmo or Zelle transaction where you're using the traditional banking rails. And that is the innovation here. And, certainly, that's the innovation of Bitcoin as as peer to peer money, and it's a lot of what the, you know, crypto people are working on with with other things, sending JPEGs and tokens in a in a peer to peer fashion. And the law needs to digest the fact that this new technology

32:53Zack Shapiro exists. And until you've listened to hours and hours and hours of Bitcoin podcasts, it's it's kind of hard to fully grok what it means for money to be peer to peer. And we're doing a pretty decent job on Capitol Hill and in the White House educating people on why this is a big deal. But judges federal judges are just really fucking old. Like, they're just Right. Very old. And there is a giant risk factor, that we will get court cases, whether they are criminal court cases like, the the samurai wallet case or civil court cases. There are adjacent issues, like with some of the the decentralized exchanges in in crypto land like like Uniswap, where a judge might not understand

33:35Zack Shapiro that there isn't anyone to regulate in a peer to peer transaction. And the specific danger here is that we are going to criminalize the tools or criminalize the people who make the tools in place of a financial intermediary, which is presumed by the law but doesn't exist. So the peer to peer rights fund was we started it in April '24, which was at the time of the indictment in the samurai wild case, but also, the same week as a reply brief in the tornado cash case where the government put out this ridiculous argument that the word transmit doesn't require you to have control of something, but it can mean the same thing for, like, heat to be transmitted by a frying pan or or electricity or data to be transmitted by USB cable. And therefore,

34:19Zack Shapiro they can punish anyone who's involved in facilitating any any movement of money And on the blockchain. And there's a real risk, as we've already seen once in the Tornado Cash cases, the judges are gonna agree with this. So the the reason for existence in the peer to peer rights fund, and I hope this is not a thing that lasts forever, it is to help this specific moment in time where we run a risk that courts that judges are going to set bad case law because we have what's called a common law, system in The United States where when judges decide something, that becomes law, that becomes precedent. We need to not

34:54Zack Shapiro accidentally have the precedent, not by regulators, not by elected officials, but just by judges who don't understand this technology that don't get that this is peer to peer money. And so Right. People, just like they have with cash, have a right to transfer money peer to peer. The Bank Secrecy Act doesn't apply to it, and we need to keep it that way. And so the mission of the peer to peer rights fund and and helping to fund the defense in the samurai wild cases is the first big example of this. But,

35:20Zack Shapiro unfortunately, there will be others down the road is to get us through this difficult moment in time and to make sure that the case law that's gonna be set over the next I can't imagine this is longer than the next five years before the precedent gets solidified here, that that precedent comes out the right way and doesn't become sort of a accidental backdoor attack on Freedom Money.

35:43Frank Corva I think Just a quick thing to weigh in on there, if you don't mind. I would say, dude, the one thing I after speaking with, shores provost, Bitcoin core dev, we did a talk at, the MIT Freedom Tech Forum. I was, you know, for as ridiculous as some of, what's coming out of the you know, what what's happened here around the tornado cache in some right wallet cases has been it's been even more ridiculous in The Netherlands where I think it was the judge that ruled that just for deploying the smart contract where it could be used for money laundering, the person did something or, you know, the developer did something, that, you know, he knew could be used for illicit purposes and therefore,

36:20Frank Corva you know, did the wrong thing. I forget exactly what the the judge said, but it's it's been even more harsh there. Thank goodness. None of that will have any bearing on what gets decided here, but, kind kind of insane to think that it can get more insane than it's been already here.

36:37Rod Palmer Yeah. The that, like, vagueness around the word transmit and what it could mean, it just it's a reminder of the importance of understanding the remote dynamics. And it almost makes me think, like, you you should, in a case like this, you have a right to a jury that listens to forty hours per week. Not just the that because that is what we're talking about. Right? Peer to peer that is the jury of your peers somebody who doesn't listen to Bitcoin podcast

37:03Rod Palmer It's hard to it's very hard to argue that they're my peer but one of the things that the bugle talked about almost all of 2024 was this it boils down to this peer to peer rights We have been

37:18Rod Palmer doing all the being transparent, we're showing proof of reserves I, you know, at Bitcoin exchanges Swan has a proof of lawsuits to let everybody know any losses they're involved in. That we have just people like Adam Cimaca or holding Jack Dorsey accountable

37:35Rod Palmer to show like his his node and how and how many Bitcoin he has for his Bitcoin treasury company and we've been doing all this and we've been complying and the government's just not like we talked about this right like this this brief came out

37:51Rod Palmer that explained, like, hey. None of this stuff is illegal. And we're like, yeah. We're still not dropping the case. And it's like, we're giving it to an Epstein judge more or less. Like, this person does not seem to understand the constitution very well, but they're gonna judge this case. And we're out. We're compliant so hard. The government's noncompliant. How are we to have a peer to peer relationship with our democratically elected government if

38:16Rod Palmer they are not holding up their end of the bargain? We're all complying with the government. It's time to for them to comply.

38:23Zack Shapiro Yeah. That's the end goal with all of this. The peer to peer rights fund is meant to bridge this moment in time and do our best to not get bad case law. But at the end of the day, the government is not going to like power being taken from them, power over the money supply, power to censor or surveil transactions. And so the government complied with regard to the Bitcoin network in the first place and didn't try and make an argument like the Bank Secrecy Act applies to Bitcoin itself

38:52Zack Shapiro because that just wasn't possible because, someone out there figured out how to build a genuinely censorship resistant even at the nation state level so far, knock on wood, technology. And that's what we need. So, you know, David Zell and I are we'll do our part. He'll you know, he's up on the hill. I'm gonna try and fight in these cases. But, ultimately, it comes down to the people,

39:16Zack Shapiro who are who are building things, to people who are listening to their forty hours per week of of Bitcoin podcasts and saying, you know, you know what? I think that, I can raise some money from from David Bailey to to build something here.

39:30Jeremy Poley Question to you about this whole, like, loss of power that might be a motivation behind this case. I was kinda wondering, if everybody's done their research, and watched the show billions, one of the main characters is, like, the lead attorney for SDNY. And I was wondering, like, why do they get to

39:51Jeremy Poley determine all these cases that have nothing to do with the Southern District Of New York and and have to do with the rest of The US? And, ChatGPT informed me about all these tiny little loopholes about how they're able to, claim it goes through their jurisdiction, again, through their power.

40:10Jeremy Poley Things like, you know, if a wire just goes through New York, then they're able to to claim that, prosecute there. If, if you have a headquarters there, it doesn't even need to go through New York. Apparently, that's another reason why SDNY can get the case. And then the most ridiculous one is just a server, if there's, like, a copy of it on the server or something like that. So how I wonder you brought up transmission and their definition of that. Is there any sort of, like, potential here where SDNY actually has, like, a personal motivation in this case, because it's it's maybe the start. They're losing ground if they lose this on on what they can even prosecute against.

40:53Zack Shapiro I mean, I think, actually, you just explained the what's called a jurisdictional hook totally correctly, and it is every bit as ridiculous as as you say. When they talk about money laundering conspiracy here, they need to talk about the underlying crime from which money is money laundering is is happening to hide the funds, and they are picking wire fraud as one of those, charges. That's not an accident. It's that the jurisdictional hook, as long as you get it going through computers, in the jurisdiction, you can claim jurisdiction.

41:23Zack Shapiro The Southern District Of New York has the most prestigious lawyers, right, really truly the most compliant, of any US attorney's office in The United States, and they try and bring these ambitious cases. You'd wish they'd be less ambitious in what they stretch the word transmission to mean, but, the this is actually completely par for the course, and that that is a pretty realistic part of of the show billings.

41:46Frank Corva Just a quick question for you too, Zach, there. How much do you feel like these lawyers really are trying to set an example by demonstrating their their prowess and understanding the law and and, I don't know, you know, in in fighting the bad guys and blah blah blah because they genuinely think it's right versus just egos being in the way and people wanting to prove certain points and that sort of muddying the waters as far as justice being served.

42:12Zack Shapiro I think people are complicated, and it's both. There's this really interesting book, called The Chicken Shit Club about, the prosecutor's office in the Southern District Of New York right after the financial crisis. And this was the period that at least the first season of Billions is directly about, which was this big standoff between Preet Bharara, who was the US attorney's office at the time. Actually, funny story about him. He sat down with Paul Giamatti to have lunch a whole bunch of times to prep for the role, and his very conservative Indian immigrant family was so excited that, you know, he was gonna be a a character based on him at the show, and they all gathered for the premiere. And and the first scene, if you've seen Billions, is like an s and m scene where, Paul Jumani gets peed on and a and a a cigarette burned on on his nipple or something like that, and and Preet's parents were just livid and and turned off the TV, and it was like a huge family scandal.

43:04Zack Shapiro But Preet Bharara went after hedge fund managers for money laundering. That was what he did. He didn't go after any of the big public company CEOs, any of the big banks, any any of the systemic things, that led to the financial crisis, which happened right before his tenure there. And the book makes the case, the chicken chip club, that all the lawyers there, they're smart. They wanna go after bad guys, but then they also wanna go make a couple million bucks a year at a big law firm. And,

43:34Zack Shapiro going after these big law firms biggest clients is is not a great way to get that job, and you can only push so hard. And so I think people take the people go to the SDNY. People they do it because they want trial experience. They do it because it's interesting. I think they do do it because it's a sense of duty, but humans are humans. And, ultimately, people are swayed by what they're personally motivated

44:00Zack Shapiro by. That's why Bitcoin works.

44:03Richard Greaser Yep. I think there's two ways to purchase. Or there's more than two ways, but there's two main ways to purchase. Either we support or like you did, set up funds like, p2prights.org, or we need to petition Fauci

44:20Richard Greaser to create another virus to kill all these boomer judges. And I think like the P2P rights, is much more preferable than another boomer mover getting unleashed on society because that wasn't very fun. Yeah, I mean, this is an important issue for all of us. As a Bitcoin podcaster, I take this very seriously. One of the impacts

44:45Richard Greaser that I've seen that's been very devastating by this case is many wallets and wallet developers have been afraid to work on their projects. In many ways, that invalidates a lot of the hard work that Bitcoin podcasters have done.

45:02Richard Greaser Like a guy like BTC Sessions, he's done all these tutorials. The tutorials get invalidated retrospectively because these wallets don't support these jurisdictions anymore because of these court cases.

45:18Richard Greaser And it's something that impacts us all. Like the guy that's going to the meetup every week, he onboarded the bartender to accept tapes for using Wallace Satoshi. Well, now Wallace Satoshi doesn't work anymore. All that effort that and and money that he spent, teaching her how to how to use it, completely wasted. And that that that makes it very, very difficult to to use and and operate,

45:51Richard Greaser just, you know, teaching people about Bitcoin.

45:55Frank Corva But can we can we be fair and say that if it weren't for the courts acting in a manner they're acting, then we wouldn't have the sort of grist for the mill for a podcast like this as well. So while they're sort of, invalidating some of the podcasts that are made, they're giving us a reason to make other podcasts. So we wanna be fair here in our assessment of the situation.

46:13Richard Greaser Yeah. Yeah. But I'd I'd prefer not to do this podcast at the end of the day.

46:18Frank Corva You know what I mean? It's like also being it's like a duty you feel?

46:24Richard Greaser Oh, I think it's I think it's important. I mean, it's just like, you know at the Beagle, we believe strongly in, not jumping on the the engagement bandwagons, just for the sake of engagement. I know it's kind of like an unusual thing in the replicator ecosystem, but we believe in practicing journalism. We believe in

46:46Richard Greaser in talking about interesting things. I personally think this is one of the more interesting topics right now, unfortunately, one of the more important topics. And it's a little bit more important than people attempting to rape Luke Dash Jr's node.

47:04Richard Greaser It definitely doesn't get as much engagement as that topic but, but yeah, I do think it's important. I think it's important to, like Rod was pointing out, we can't have this one-sided non compliance where the government is the only one that has the right to not comply. That's wrong.

47:26Richard Greaser We should either both be forced to comply or we should be both allowed not to comply. But there needs to be equality of complying all around for everybody. And it's something I'm willing to, you know, put my foot down. We have this tagline,

47:46Richard Greaser and you probably know about this, Frank, you know, being a credential journalism. Like, we believe very strongly that journalism dies in compliance. And, in in the very nature of Bitcoin at the end of the day, you know, is being not compliant. So I mean, I think it's really good to bring the attack and just be on the offensive. Because that's like one of the problems is these guys are, they're always on the offensive.

48:19Richard Greaser I think the average person using Bitcoin, they're just like, I wanna do my peer to peer, non KYC cigarette transaction. I wanna be left alone. I wanna, you know, hang out, smoke my cigarettes, and listen to this podcast. I don't wanna think about having to defend myself from the pedophiles who are trying to tell me not where I can't smoke. I just wanna enjoy it. I wanna think about Dennis Porter and have sex with my wife.

48:48Richard Greaser But the problem is is these people are always on the offensive trying to get in your way. They're trying to interrupt you. And whether you like it or not, they're gonna show up eventually and tell you that that, custodial lightning transaction was not allowed.

49:08Rod Palmer You know, so I know you guys are pressed for time here, so I wanna thank you for coming on but I had one last question for Zach if you guys didn't know he was on What Bitcoin Did a few days ago they got a really good episode so check that out but my question oh Zach when you the day that you're your what you you didn't you get to go on what Bitcoin did you get to do what Bitcoin did interview and you like when that comes out you could share that in your group chat send it to your family like what's that like? It's gotta be that's gotta I I'm thinking about that day in my future, I hope. What was it like for you?

49:48Zack Shapiro I think my family was very confused. No. I mean, look. Danny is terrific. I do feel bad. I briefly mixed up in the episode, Danny and and Peter, and so I was trying to explain the common law point we were talking about earlier. I was like, you know, in in The UK, this is the same system you have forgetting that he was Australian, and so that that was, that was mortifying. But, it is the highest

50:14Zack Shapiro possible credential in in Bitcoin. And so, it's been difficult to see where I where I go from there. But

50:23Rod Palmer That's the worst part. Right? It's like you think during about this day and then you get there, it's like, I'm still not fulfilled. What's the next what's the next podcast? Maybe. I don't know. What's the what kind of podcast do you listen to outside of Bitcoin?

50:38Zack Shapiro I probably shouldn't say that out loud. It's,

50:43Rod Palmer fair enough. Fair enough. The the the political answer is I don't listen to podcasts outside of Bitcoin. No. I don't have time.

50:52Frank Corva I I didn't know there were podcasts outside of Bitcoin.

50:56Rod Palmer Hell yeah, Frank. He gets it.

51:00Richard Greaser Might as well not be. Well, as we let you guys go, I think I'm gonna keep the stream rolling and talk a little bit about the, the event after you guys drop off. But before we transition to that, you guys have anything, you wanna promote or say?

51:19Zack Shapiro Yeah. Real really excited about about your guys' event, and I think there is an important role to play if there ends up being a trial in samurai wallet. The we're gonna have to contextualize some of these statements, the, defendants made. And so if the the more we can make the case that that was par for the course in in Bitcoin lingo, the the more helpful. So I I hope and expect for some pretty outlandish stuff.

51:46Zack Shapiro And then for anyone looking for the the polar opposite, I do wanna show the, BPI very, very, very compliant summit, at the end of June in DC. If you wanna hang out with,

51:59Zack Shapiro government officials, intelligence community folks, no no joke, are gonna come and speak about Bitcoin, and and that's gonna be fascinating.

52:08Frank Corva Yeah. I think just a second what Zach said there about the event, satirize the system. Everybody will be in Vegas if you haven't got your ticket yet. I believe it's Wednesday evening. That's the day it's the evening after the second day of the conference. I will be the emcee for the evening, for the earlier part of the evening when we will have, guests that are just trying to be compliant. The Kate Malongs of the world who are just trying to submit the proper paperwork to get the proper just trying to get the right documents so that she could, work her crowd. The The Yeah. None of the elders. If you I mean, I don't know if we would call Trace Mayer an elder. He isn't a he isn't sort of a different right, but he's not one of kinda quote, unquote, the elders, but still someone to be sort of, very excited to have there. We'll have the one and only Rob Hamilton as well from what I understand.

52:54Frank Corva An extremely compliant extremely compliant individual. So, yeah, looking forward to hosting it. Quite honored to be there with you. Hoping to smoke at least a full pack of cigarettes, in between introducing and, you know, introducing the different guests. So backstage, you guys see, a huge puffs of smoke coming out back, which is just, Richard, Rod, and I, you know, filling

53:16Frank Corva filling our lungs up with,

53:18Rod Palmer Where there is, yeah, where there is smoke where there is smoke, there is fire, Bitcoin podcast signal. And, yeah, I I would say I describe Trace Mayer as having a macro elder soul. He doesn't have the age, but he's got the macro elder soul.

53:34Frank Corva Amen.

53:37Richard Greaser What pack what type what brand of cigarettes do you smoke, Frank? Just out of curiosity.

53:42Frank Corva Just as we know, there's only, one type of podcast, the Bitcoin podcast. There's only one type of cigarette, and we know those are Marlboro Reds.

53:49Richard Greaser Well said. Very cool. Zach, you got anything?

53:57Zack Shapiro Nope. Looking forward to see you all there.

53:59Rod Palmer How are you, man? Thanks for coming on.

54:01Zack Shapiro Anytime.

54:03Frank Corva Take it easy, guys.

54:05Jeremy Poley See you.

54:08Richard Greaser Well, yeah, I just wanted to roll for a minute. So update, if you want to pay for the event in bitcoin, just DM the twenty one media. I think,

54:27Richard Greaser yeah, it's pretty pretty easy to do. Just hop in their DMs, shoot them DM. You can pay for a big one. I think there's some space here for,

54:36Jeremy Poley like, an event competitor. At this point, there's, like, one or two really good event companies slash sites. So we're using one of them, and,

54:48Jeremy Poley it doesn't have any sort of Bitcoin acceptance. So, I think there's room to compete with them, if there's anybody with any ideas for an event startup that just accepts Bitcoin. We would we would how many people would take that in a heartbeat?

55:04Richard Greaser I think you could probably do it with Zap. Right? I've seen people do that before. That that's a possibility. It probably needs to be marketed a little bit better. But yeah. I'm stoked for this event. I think it's gonna be the best event in Vegas. We're gonna make sure it's the best event in Vegas. We got a stellar, group of individuals that already bought tickets.

55:29Richard Greaser There definitely is the potential that we're running into that the the VIP tickets will sell out because there's a limited amount of space in the, wrestling room where Rod and I will be, calling the fights. We have not hit that threshold yet, but, you know, we're approaching it little, slowly but surely.

55:53Richard Greaser And, yeah, I mean, I'm stoked about the event.

56:01Jeremy Poley Yeah. But it's it's kinda crazy. The, the ticket sales, the VIP tickets, which long story short, as you mentioned, means you're in the the live event room. I think we it's almost at, like, a one to one ratio of of the sales there. So, that is kinda going fast. But on the upside of the other ticket is you have, like, the coolest, most fun venue where you get to play all the bowling you want. You get to play all the the video games and stuff like that you want. You get to hang out at the bar,

56:33Jeremy Poley and talk as much as you want with, people around you. I I guess you can do that at other places, but but this is a place where it's gonna be a full environment. Anywhere you turn, there's gonna be some sort of activity to, to make your your mitochondria go to work and give you some, I don't know, whatever the the

56:53Jeremy Poley the brain chemical is you get from serotonin for fun? Is that what it is? You guys are the credentialed experts here. Probably dopamine. Dopamine. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. And and then, actually, we were just talking about samurai walls. Let's talk about that again. Something that we all have have

57:17Jeremy Poley cared about since before even knowing each other and crossed paths along the way and was something that we wanted to carry forward together. So we we are doing a trivia contest, that is, sponsored by the good people over at Zeus Wallet, where we'll play some Bitcoin trivia in the ring. Go head to head. And,

57:41Jeremy Poley each time you win, you get a $100, and then you go go on to become a champion. Somebody will be deemed the champion. And, any of all of the money that goes towards the raffle tickets for being able to compete, goes towards the samurai fund, the peer to peer fund. And then on top of that, every single ticket,

58:03Jeremy Poley $5 of it will be donated to the the samurai the peer to peer fund, and, and you get five tickets automatically. So just by showing up, you've donated money to the peer to peer fund, and you've been entered in your chance to be a part of this contest. And at that point, depending on how much you will actually want to be in it, any sort of, financial value that you put towards that all goes to the peer to peer fund. So, that's something that I think is is kinda cool. It can be hard

58:36Jeremy Poley to get people to donate. Sometimes, even if you don't have much money, it's hard to, to do. But if you find yourself in Vegas and, and there's an entire event going on and some fun going on, made some friends going, the idea that you that you could, be also donating to, samurai wallet is is something that,

58:58Jeremy Poley that I I I guess makes it easier, makes it makes it something I'm turning this in on myself because there's big times that you get stopped and and people ask for donations and you wanna help out, and maybe you're, you're you've fallen on hard times or things like that,

59:17Jeremy Poley and it can be hard to do. But, if you if you have put yourself in a situation where you are in Vegas, it means that you've already kinda committed. And, and this is an opportunity where you can not only donate just by going, but then, you know, donate just a little bit further while you're there. And, and I think it'll be something that we can then get to talk about it, why it's important. We get some experts up there, some great people like we just had here, and, and it it'll be all around a good time of, not just talking the talk, but walking the walk.

59:48Rod Palmer Yeah. And I I I just wanna jump in here and say, you know, you you have this, you know, this ask of the of donating. I I'm of the opinion. We've had a really good year. We're dunking on people left and right. They coin a 100 k. I mean, it's you if you've got an MSTR, you're crushing it. If you got the MSTY, you're getting you quit your job, you're getting a bigger salary just collecting those dividends. Just just give a mugs MSTY dividends to the same right those. You can afford it. You can afford your taxes.

1:00:20Rod Palmer You're you're cry you're living it up right now. And it's only getting better. Bitcoin has already won. So, you know, let's make sure that, the samurai guys are in prison when, you know, when when we're out here winning. It's not fair.

1:00:38Richard Greaser I I think it's more than that, though. I I think it's like, the samurai guys are are cool. I mean, I always found them annoying on Twitter, before, and I I think a lot of us did. But it's not about that. It's it's about one, there is two things. It's about actually being productive

1:00:58Richard Greaser in in holding these people that try and restrict our smoking rights accountable and and not allowing them to just, like, run over people. Like, you know, being annoying on Twitter is is not a reason to go to Twitter. Or it's hard to go to prison. We shouldn't we shouldn't put Why

1:01:18Richard Greaser put We shouldn't put Shinobi in prison. We shouldn't put Shinobi or Justin Bachelor or a lot of these guys in prison just because they're annoying in Twitter. And, like, I think the reason why it's important we're doing this is we're trying to we're trying to raise awareness around, one, a productive way to deal with these people. We're following the Scientologist playbook.

1:01:42Richard Greaser They're the ones that really really set the the standard. What you do is you you fund Jewish lawyers to go after these people and, you know, muddle up their laws, and and eventually get them to submit. And they will submit eventually if you have enough energy behind it and noise. The reason why I support them we're doing this is because Podkoff isn't. Podkoff isn't supporting,

1:02:08Richard Greaser this or promoting it. You know? It's there's there's not a ton of engagement in supporting these guys. It it is kind of a meme, like, let's let's help the samurai guys, you know, yada yada yada.

1:02:24Rod Palmer I I think like the other day, they'd rather hang out with hot politicians like Cynthia Lummis. Yeah. That's really what it ultimately boils down to. They wanna go to the party. They wanna hang out with hot politicians. They wanna hang out with Ted Cruz. They wanna hang out with the Trump Trump's fail you know, his adult sons. And they wanna talk about fucking shit coins and stable coins with politicians and and Trump's adult sons. They don't wanna talk about samurai.

1:02:51Rod Palmer They are ashamed of samurai because samurai are some of the biggest orange cells, on Twitter, you know, and probably in meetups. Like, it's when you go to a conference and there's, like, a dude dressed like a freaking ninja and like you can't even see his eyes like he's he's so it's like the you are an influencer somebody's gonna know who you are just because anyways my point that's an orange sale

1:03:16Rod Palmer But who's really bringing the most who's really brought the most value or, just who's really been better for Bitcoin? It's definitely CMRI over a senator or a politician or, you know, Trump's adult sons.

1:03:35Richard Greaser Yep.

1:03:36Jeremy Poley It's like the family thing. I I I'm glad you brought it up, Greaser. I I I remember the, there's kind of like the, wasabi, samurai wars, and and the samurai were definitely the the dirtier. And,

1:03:53Jeremy Poley well, let's just stick with that for the moment, side of that. And a lot of people dislike them because of that. But that's the kind of thing is, one day we can go from from, kind of hating on our our our dirty people that we see on Twitter to the next day, they they the government moves against them, and it's time for us to put up the fight and say, you can't you can't do that to these people that we that we hate. There are people that we hate,

1:04:24Jeremy Poley and and they have the right to be hated, and we're gonna do something about it.

1:04:28Richard Greaser Yeah. I mean, it's like, if if we don't put our our foot down and we say that we're just like, let let the annoying people on Twitter, you know, go to prison for for stupid made up reasons just because we didn't like them because they were annoying on Twitter, we'll we'll devolve into The UK.

1:04:49Richard Greaser Next thing you know, people are getting put in jail for memes, and there there really is a slip slippery slope with this stuff. Like, the the reason why these people, you know, haven't already accomplished all of this stuff in being able to ban good memes, being able to ban good cultural things,

1:05:10Richard Greaser it is not because they lack the the guns to do it, But because people put their foot down in the sand and say, no. Screw you. We're hiring Jewish lawyers and suing the shit out of you.

1:05:27Richard Greaser And, you know, we're gonna continue to to do things this way anyways. And it's just like, it's it's cool to use Bitcoin. It's really cool to use Bitcoin. And Yeah. There really is a future that we're looking at right now

1:05:46Rod Palmer where we're not Don't judge all Bitcoiners by Joe Nakamoto. Right? It's actually cool to use Bitcoin. It's not. You know what I mean?

1:05:55Richard Greaser Yeah. Like, I I'm not really satisfied with the only way of me being able to go and and buy cigarettes being USDT in the future. That's that's not really what I'm rooting for personally. I wanna use Bicco to buy my cigarettes. And

1:06:20Jeremy Poley No. I think It's a step towards, the death of journalism. Free journalism is what it sounds like. Yeah. And you guys are are the icons of that. And

1:06:28Rod Palmer I I wanted to add to this because there's I think there's one more team up, you know, that might just be skeptical of what we're doing here. And it's samurai the big things the MRI are fed. So it's, you know, just because somebody's a fed, if they're a Bitcoiner, we're still going to help them as long as the they're being charged with, you know, and something that's fundamental to us. Like, it's not that they're feds. It's not that they're annoying. It's their it's that we don't want the precedent to be set that, like, doing a basic,

1:06:60Rod Palmer expressing a basic human fundamental right granted to you by God the creator of the universe whatever, and that's why I think I would we talked about this earlier, I where we did with Zach and Frank, which was

1:07:15Rod Palmer this stuff is so complicated and abstract that in, you get to in front of a jury or some boomer judge, they don't understand that stuff. They do not fundamentally, they don't follow. So these clever, I mean, that the government doesn't do very much well, but what they do well is they litigate and they prosecute in courts, especially criminal courts and financial crimes. So you've got very, very intelligent, very high high high IQ, high level operators,

1:07:47Rod Palmer they are defining, they are using their their law jargon memes to guide a judge or a jury who just they're not gonna think for themselves. None of these judges don't smoke cigarettes. And juries, a lot of them are in theses, they they a lot of them think like Mike Brock. And but at least now I hope

1:08:08Rod Palmer that thanks to Dennis Porter and all these bills that he's gotten passed to all these states, these people will have heard that it is your right to self custody Bitcoin. It is your right to transact and run your own node, and it is it is your right to have a, a hardware wallet that you heard you bought from a podcast. And

1:08:28Rod Palmer maybe that will get through them and it will it will prevent it'll balance the the scales of justice a little bit more that everybody knows Dennis Porter has already fought for our right to own Bitcoin and to self conceived Bitcoin and to transact on chain. So maybe, you know, maybe

1:08:48Richard Greaser we should it's it's too early to be a doomer. Totally. Well, I think it's it's about, you know, what whether we have permission to do these things or not. Like, we have the moral right to do them at the end of the day. And, you know, when when I look at things like this, when I look at people just getting dragged through the mud like the samurai guys are with stupid chargers that don't make any sense, when I look at that,

1:09:16Richard Greaser I I just think, what if that was me? You know? What if that was me a few years from now and people just kinda twiddle their thumbs and didn't do anything about it? I don't wanna be one of those people that's just like twiddling my thumbs and not doing anything about it. I wanna be one of the people that would be taking care of me. Because there's a very real possibility, and I know this has happened to people that don't have as much meme power behind them, that didn't pay a bunch of designers to make, you know, cool branding, that's easy to to promote in the future,

1:09:51Richard Greaser and and have a catchy slogan, free samurai. Like, that that could be That is a cool slogan, though. It is a cool Free samurai. They they definitely got that going for them. The memes are cool. Look at Jeremy's shirt. That's a cool shirt.

1:10:08Jeremy Poley Yeah. I I accidentally put this on today. I only realized it when I sat down and do the podcast. Can you can you imagine free wasabi? That just sounds too goofy. Like, you don't even take your stairs. Nobody's gonna put free wasabi

1:10:19Rod Palmer in their nostril profile. It's if they did, somebody would just well, did they just make a meme with, like, a sushi restaurant? I don't know. It just it wouldn't have worked. But free samurai I mean, you put a a free samurai, like, on an Ungovernable Misfits t shirt. Dude, that's selling out first hour. It's on there. Yeah. Free wasabi sounds like something that a Japanese guy yells before he climaxes.

1:10:43Jeremy Poley That's not something that would do well.

1:10:45Richard Greaser I mean, it sounds like Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm pretty sure most of the the sushi restaurants give out free wasabi anyways. Yeah. People just think it's, like, some sort of marketing ploy to get people to eat more, uncooked fish or something. Like, it's

1:11:02Rod Palmer Instead of steak.

1:11:03Richard Greaser I mean, the meme is good. So so maybe that's something to think about. It's like, you know, maybe we should all, be, focusing on our brands and memes so that if and when we're put in jail, it's easier to raise money for our Jewish,

1:11:16Jeremy Poley lawyer defense fund. Yeah. The cyberpunks, you know, they're heralded for being these, tech gurus who who kinda stood up for free rights. And, in some interviews, they said that it was actually the memes were the most effective. They would get together there in in Berkeley or wherever they were at and, and try and decide on what they should do. And it was the meme warfare, that kind of won for him. And I wanted to bring up you guys both kind of, touched on, like,

1:11:46Jeremy Poley imagining yourself in these shoes and, who's actually doing something about it. And we've kinda the correlation has been made to, the state versus Zimmerman two point o. That's kind of like what what the samurai case is. And something that Zimmerman said was that, once the media realized that that that was a case about free speech, that that was a case about, code is speech, For them, obviously,

1:12:14Jeremy Poley they need speech. You you guys know. You you know the media needs speech. And they got all of he said, once they realized that, he he had interviews every single day. Every single news station got in on it. They all started pushing, the free speech narrative out into the public. They went over the public, like, overnight. And, and this is, I think, a similar thing, but because Bitcoin is harder to understand, there's now that mental barrier. I think Zach did a really good job painting that picture that for, like, this judge,

1:12:47Jeremy Poley coming down to him having to figure out what Bitcoin is. And then you have mechanic out there, stomping all over the idea that Bitcoin is is, is speech. There's a lot going against this at this moment, and all we need is that tipping point, where we can finally, you know, have people realize this is a matter of speech and freedom and expression.

1:13:11Rod Palmer Thank God, Craig. Thank God mechanic has a funny talker accent because I feel like he had, like, a really confident, masculine American accent, and he was arguing this shit. Do you want to take it more seriously? But when he comes out of this, it's like, we're not taking any more advice from the funny talkers. We're done with advice from the funny talker. I hope that is, I hope that saves us.

1:13:35Jeremy Poley Yeah. I I I do think let's say the judge actually does decide to listen to a podcast, and right now, you you can't, you can't fall and miss a podcast with mechanic in it. A good American judge, he's gonna hear that accent and immediately just throw out everything that he's saying. So It is.

1:13:54Rod Palmer Yeah. It is crazy, like, The U U The U The UK Government is banning and making memes illegal, and mechanic is trying to make him illegal on on on Shane. And it's like, why do you why do British people hate memes so much? Mhmm. Why do they hate me speak so much? Why do they hate me? Why is he helping the the English? Like, I mean, we all know what the, the royal family is all about and what they what they like to do,

1:14:27Rod Palmer over there. And the government, they're they're even worse. And why is he why is he trying to ban memes and free speech while he's trying to help them? This sounds like a case for the bugle.

1:14:36Richard Greaser I think the easy answer to that is, you know, America essentially got its independence from memes. They meme the British to death. And this is just like the the overarching issue over and over again, is that incumbent typically isn't good at memeing.

1:14:55Richard Greaser That's one of the advantages kind of the dissident, groups have over the incumbent, authoritarian in charge. Is that they're they're they're

1:15:09Richard Greaser because what makes a meme effective is having truth in it. If you if you spin a meme that is completely rooted in just like nonsense, it's not it's not gonna take off. It's not gonna resonate with people. Because even even the most,

1:15:31Richard Greaser even the most retarded nicotine deficient m p c will resonate at least a little bit with the truth when they see it.

1:15:40Rod Palmer Right. Right. Yeah. If you build, right?

1:15:45Richard Greaser Yeah. I mean, if you're propagating, like, a meme, like, that,

1:15:54Rod Palmer No. This is this is what this is exactly what I was gonna say is, if you think non KYC cigarettes, if you think we're being silly or like you think we're joking, we're not joking, right? Because if you think that's silly, the American Revolution started over non KYC tea. They they they they burned it to the ground. They didn't want they wanted non KYC caffeine in the morning. That's all they want.

1:16:19Rod Palmer And they told the king to fuck off. They told the, you know, the crown, the non compliant, state that they got with the time to tell them to fuck off. And they're willing to do it over over non KYC caffeine. Why Yeah. Why why why what do you mean when you think we're joking we don't? Shouldn't have to have KYC for cigarettes. Oh, here here's why I buy my cigarettes, not KYC, because, you know, I I'm dissatisfied with the system.

1:16:47Richard Greaser I don't consent to being told where I can and can't smoke. And so when you go and you do a KYC, cigarette transaction, first of all, the gas station attendant sees your address, which is kinda weird. I I just I I think that's kinda weird. But but second of all, what you're doing is they heap all these taxes

1:17:11Richard Greaser on that cigarette transaction. So you're essentially paying taxes to the people who are telling you where you can't smoke, who are hanging out with figures like Epstein,

1:17:27Richard Greaser whose images are being managed by people that are hanging out with Diddy. Like, why why are you paying why are you KYC? Why are you paying taxes on cigarettes? Like, the for for me, this is my act of of the Boston Tea Party right here. This is this is the New York cigarette party.

1:17:48Jeremy Poley There's an interesting backstory to that. I don't know if it extends beyond New York, but, there was, let's say, an agreement, where the taxes would go up so high on them that people would want non KYC cigarettes,

1:18:06Jeremy Poley and those would be sold by the mafia, to, to the vendors who are then selling the non KYC, as a way to be cheaper. And, they would either, you know, steal them or or buy them on the cheap and, then sell them with a big markup and still be less than the the taxed cigarettes.

1:18:27Richard Greaser Well, yeah, I don't believe in buying stolen products. I'm not I'm not definitely not a fan on that. I've definitely vetted my, my cigarette dealers pretty thoroughly.

1:18:38Rod Palmer And if you and if you buy it, like, my parents stay by bag tobacco, and they roll their own cigarettes. So they they they don't have, like, they're basically it's got it's similar to mixtures of tumblers. They're having just untraceable cigarettes but they got they got fined for that they got, hit over the penalty they can only buy

1:19:02Rod Palmer the pack of, you know, 20 pack of Marlboros or whatever no menthols or, you know, back when that was still banned. And it was just, like, so limited. Instead, like, they just wanted to save some money and roll their own cigarettes. Just wanted to do it sovereignly. And they still they still took that away from them.

1:19:20Richard Greaser Yeah. We gotta stand our ground on issues like this. But it's just like, if you believe that people should be thrown in jail because they don't wanna pay taxes to people that have hung out on Epstein Island and tell them where not to smoke. I don't I don't know what to say. There's gotta be something wrong with you

1:19:46Richard Greaser fundamentally. I don't know I don't know if you're drinking too much, fluoride or or you subscribed for to Mike Brock's Substack for too long or you know, what what's wrong with you if that's where you're you're coming from? Like, I I believe that there's a moral imperative to transact non KYC with cigarettes. It is be because the moral implications of

1:20:13Richard Greaser submitting the KYC and paying the taxes are so atrocious. And I know I know people like to pretend like this stuff isn't real. People like to pretend like this stuff isn't real. And if if that's the case, if you're an individual that's pretending like this stuff isn't real and it's it's it's not happening, you're you're you're like a no coiner. I could tell you

1:20:36Rod Palmer I could tell you for a fact that it's real. My cousin had to spend two days, in a county jail. It was it was either last summer or the summer before. It was there was a wildfire in Colorado and he was hiking with his friends and he got arrested for smoking a cigarette It's like he's on state land he pays taxes for,

1:20:56Rod Palmer and they're just like, oh, there's a fire nearby so you're arrested for smoking a cigarette It's like if you can't smoke as If I'm not allowed to determine my own level of risk, you know, in it I understand thermodynamics. I'm not going to start a fire. The government's starting fires with space lasers, and they're didn't matter me because I'm smoking a cigarette. Give me a break. Go after the real

1:21:20Jeremy Poley criminals. Have you guys ever had it where you you get a word that just gets completely destroyed? Anytime that you hear it, your mind just goes immediately to what,

1:21:29Rod Palmer Oh, yeah. I've got yeah. It's autism.

1:21:32Jeremy Poley So, Greaser just said fundamentals, and I didn't hear another word that came out of his mouth because I just imagined, you know, here in Philly, fundamentals, who you have on every once in a while, the cohost of Rock Paper Bitcoin. I hear fundamentals, and I just immediately think of him. Like, I half expect him to come through the door,

1:21:53Jeremy Poley the smell of, you know, latkes coming in and Jewish curly hair, immediately. But, yeah, sorry. I I heard fundamentals, and and I just completely lost it.

1:22:03Richard Greaser He's gonna be at the event. I'm excited. Yeah. Yeah. He's got a book coming out,

1:22:09Jeremy Poley which is pretty great. It's flying in the face of the idea of corporate treasuries. I really like that. His background as a as a

1:22:19Rod Palmer something. It's not an accountant. I got schooled in this. It sound like an Actuary. It's like a it's like a actuary. Like, yeah. He managed, he man it was like he you know, had to have, like, a bunch of vice presidents at Vides Capital. They it's one of those financial things in New York. They have a bunch of vice presidents, big, big bank name, and he managed, like, hedged all the risk. So he's like, he's got credentials.

1:22:45Jeremy Poley Yeah. That's a one of those job positions, it sounds like, from medieval ages, like a a cobbler or something like that. But it it is really interesting. I can't wait for for him to put this out there because it it flat really does fly in the face of all the the popular, talk that's going on in the podcast right now. So, yeah, look at this. Look at this. Just got completely sidetracked because of one one word. Thanks a lot, fundamentals.

1:23:15Rod Palmer Well, I think what you're highlighting is a powerful impact to have.

1:23:18Richard Greaser You're what you're highlighting there is the dangers of podcast, the podcast of the world, the of the people trying to create a dogma, a a mononarrative to to completely control the conversation,

1:23:33Richard Greaser a certain way, not allow the, the free market of ideas to to happen. Usually, when people are restricting the free market of ideas is because they're propagating ideas that don't have merit, that don't have weight, in order to try and create some sort of agenda.

1:23:56Richard Greaser And we we see this all throughout all throughout history, you know, over and over again. And that's why it's important to have individuals that are willing to dissent from PodCon, to dissent from the mononarrative.

1:24:13Richard Greaser They they try and tell us that being this way is bad for NGU. That having other ideas other than what's PodCon approved is bad for NGU. That's that's their, the rationale here. But I I I think there's an argument that, that in in many ways is good for NGU. You look at you you know, Ross is gonna be free. He's gonna be speaking at the conference. That's pretty cool.

1:24:42Richard Greaser I mean, how many people have you talked to that that have gotten into Bitcoin in one way or another because of, the Silk Road? You look at, like, the the Michael Jordan of Bitcoin podcasting, Peter McCormick. He got in because of the Silk Road. The Pete Rose of podcasting.

1:25:05Rod Palmer Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Peter is a Peter's a gambler. Yeah.

1:25:11Jeremy Poley It's a good point, and he comes back around. These narratives get taken over. People with their, their value, these, you know, hedge fund guys that come in, and they control the narrative of let's move let's move Bitcoin this direction, and and it gets sidetracked. And before you know it, you know, we're getting Washington DC credentials. Sorry, Frank.

1:25:35Jeremy Poley But, this is a chance for us to to put the focus back on. If you're in Vegas, it can actually be pretty cool. I'm I'm imagining the old school Vegas, but here's an opportunity for all all us to get together and, take a closer look at this NGU versus freedom money, divergence that's going on.

1:25:59Jeremy Poley And then comedy, this this came up earlier too. At film school, I was glad to have taken this this, class on comedy script writing, just purely for the historical value.

1:26:13Jeremy Poley He highlighted how comedy had, like, one purpose back in the day, and that was to criticize. That was, that was the best and and

1:26:25Jeremy Poley most yeah. The best way to to criticize whatever power was above you. And, as you pointed out, you kinda have to you kinda have to get it. And if you're from, let's say, the lower class and you've been beaten on and you understand this position, you have this perspective, it's possible to write comedy that speaks to you that actually goes over the heads of of the very people that you're criticizing.

1:26:49Jeremy Poley And so, so that's that's something that we're embracing. That's that's something, I'm really happy to, to be able to have the right people there, have you guys there, and then pull in the other people who who hear on that level with us, the freedom money level. And, whether it's a conversation that's going on on a stage, whether it's, you know, a a midget throwing another midget out of the ring and one of them happens to have the name of Michael Sailor while he's being thrown out of the ring or whether it's a conversation that you're having, you know, in a different room a 100 feet away from that just with some other people around you. It's it's an environment that I can't wait to be in and kick it with you guys.

1:27:32Richard Greaser So one thing I wanted to talk real quick. So, Rod, you were working on this. You got, Alex Brammer. He's coming

1:27:43Rod Palmer to the event. Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna have, the live, you know, announcing, with the midget wrestling. Alex Alex is gonna join us, and, he he's a bit quitter. He's like the pedicab guy, I think,

1:27:59Rod Palmer for the videos, psych on YouTube and maybe TikTok too. But, he's also the guy that went to, the Democratic National Convention. You gotta see the guy first. He looks like yeah. He's a pretty fit guy. He he doesn't look like a Democrat, really, like, the type of,

1:28:19Rod Palmer male Democrat, and he's but he's dressed like one. It's like just going through just like white dudes for Harris, you know, white dudes for, like, a a Terrence. There was the him and Dennis Porter were on that, crypto for Harris group. He was he he was calling people out for not using pronouns. He was telling people his pronouns, and he was just, like, the most absurd, satire

1:28:44Rod Palmer of a, you know, of a liberal. And, like, nobody at the DNC realized he was trolling them. It's like he was acting as ridiculous as possible, and they were just, like, going along with it. And it it was pretty incredible. So who knows what he'll have in store for satirizing system, but, this dude trolled the entire Democratic National Convention and BBC News. So

1:29:10Rod Palmer we'll see if he well, we'll we'll see if he can control the bugle. I am skeptical that he's got what it takes to do that.

1:29:19Richard Greaser So he's gonna be he's gonna be coenouncing with us, sounds like the plan? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we're gonna try and,

1:29:27Jeremy Poley you know, each match is going to be a different point in Bitcoin history or a different dynamic of personalities that have, you know, fought before. And, and and we are gonna try and rotate in some different people to join you on the announcing table, to maybe speak on it who that might be relevant in some way, shape, or form. But, certainly, it's also about the voice itself, and Alex is is hilarious.

1:29:52Rod Palmer It was it almost makes me think, like, you could have and it this is just an idea. But, you know, considering how well he, does his he was able to fool the DNC and stuff he can have the Pughl announcement stream and then the the what from the DeQuint's history from the the woke perspective everybody's pronoun it's it it might be very important for some of these, progressive Bitcoiners, they have a podcast,

1:30:20Rod Palmer to hear, you know, the pronouns of the anonymous or the nims back into, like, you know, 2011 on the message boards, Bitcoin talk forms. Because it's like, you know, if you know that,

1:30:35Rod Palmer what was the COBRA Bitcoin? Seems kinda like a beta to me. I don't know. It's people don't know that context. It could I mean, if they did, it could totally shape, the history of it. It'd be very interesting, and it would orange pill them.

1:30:52Rod Palmer They would decide which Bitcoin core devs were in, Gryffindor which Bitcoin core devs were in slit the red and it's like oh well that's the you know Luke is a whatever house you think Luke would be in for Harry Potter and it's like I think that's the stupidest thing ever, but that would orange fill my girlfriend. Like, learning about Luke and Peter Todd and their,

1:31:15Rod Palmer their their their Harry Potter houses. So, you know.

1:31:19Richard Greaser I think Luke's in Hufflepuff, but he thinks he's in Gryffindor.

1:31:23Rod Palmer I didn't wanna go there, but because I don't I'm not credentialed on the the Harry Potter stuff, so I didn't wanna t t go that one. But that's, like, what do you think Luke's, astrology sign is? Imagine if he's a Hufflepuff and, like, a Gemini. I don't know what that would mean, but I know that it would be really important to my girlfriend.

1:31:43Jeremy Poley Do you know anybody that might be able to explain that?

1:31:46Rod Palmer That might Yeah. She's gonna be there. Erin's gonna be there. Yeah. Erin's gonna be there, and she, she's posting horoscopes on Bitcoin, 40 horoscopes a week and she's hot. She's, she does hang out with Casey Ordinals. So do with that what she will. But yeah.

1:32:13Jeremy Poley Well, I have, I have some headphones, noise canceling headphones that, I need to go pick up. Gotta recharge the headphones, boys. Time to recharge the headphones. Yeah. It's for the trivia, actually, because we don't need people in the audience shouting out answers. If you're on stage, competing, you're gonna be wearing these headphones, so that we can block that out. So I'm gonna go pick those up right now. I've got a guy waiting for me.

1:32:39Rod Palmer That's a great way to end it. Yeah. Star recharge your head. Don't don't be afraid to take time to recharge your headphones. Everybody's gotta recharge your headphones.

1:32:48Richard Greaser I do wanna shout out before we end, I need to find her,

1:32:55Rod Palmer Both girls selling, art?

1:32:59Richard Greaser Yeah. Girls selling art.

1:33:04Rod Palmer We've got a lot of girls coming to this, coming to this party. I bet you some of these other side events could not say the same

1:33:12Richard Greaser thing. Yeah. Give her give her a follower. Follow. Cheyenne. Her user her profile name, astral aura. She signed on board to, be selling her art at the event. Let me see if she's got it posted in the order. Yeah. Here we go. She's gonna be doing these,

1:33:31Richard Greaser cool burnt out, Bitcoin things.

1:33:36Rod Palmer And We should do a forty hour per week one. Oh,

1:33:41Richard Greaser that'd be cool. Yeah. Here's a here's a video of her doing it. It's pretty cool. I don't know if I can do that. For all the audio people. What do what do you I I always thought those things were used for lighting cigarettes. They're used for burning things in the woods. So, yeah, she's

1:33:59Rod Palmer she's selling cigarette art.

1:34:01Richard Greaser Yep.

1:34:02Rod Palmer Now they have the remote dynamic art. There's fire involved. But, yeah, bar miners could be running around with,

1:34:10Richard Greaser some some bar jerky, selling that. If you're really interested in selling something at the event, that is, like, something that you made, you put work and and time and effort into, that would be cool. Not really interested in

1:34:28Richard Greaser financial products or, you know, whatever. But, yeah. Anyways, I am stoked for the event. You can find go follow d twenty one media on Twitter. Their their pin post the the link to the event satirize the system

1:34:48Richard Greaser is pinned on their profile, the twenty one media. Go check it out. If you wanna hang out with us in Vegas, I'm gonna be getting there about as early as I can. I think doors open at seven.

1:35:02Richard Greaser I'm gonna book it out right after the event. So if you wanna hang out with me, show up on time. We'll get a chance to smoke cigarettes together. Trace Mayer, Kate Long, gonna be there wearing cowboy hats. There's gonna be the opportunity to go bowling. If you wanna go bowling, I don't know if I'm gonna have the opportunity to because I'm gonna probably be too busy talking to Bitcoin podcasters and and Bitcoin podcast listeners, but we're gonna have a really cool group of people. A lot of the the attendees that have already bought their tickets are are very, very

1:35:36Richard Greaser interesting and and cool people. I don't know if they wanna necessarily publicize who else going to the event. But it is definitely, gonna be a good use of your time. And, yeah. Wanna thank you everybody for tuning in to this stream. And, if you wanna, donate to not just the samurai defense,

1:35:58Richard Greaser but if you wanna donate to the defense of people using Bitcoin peer to peer, go check out p2prights.org. That's what Zac Shapiro and BPI guys are up to. It's a really cool project I've been a fan of for a long time. Catch you soon. This route avoids a slowdown.