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Transcript: From Grumpy To Gleeful With Matt Odell | BTP Episode 23
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diff --git a/wiki/transcripts/from-grumpy-to-gleeful-with-matt-odell-btp-episode-23.md b/wiki/transcripts/from-grumpy-to-gleeful-with-matt-odell-btp-episode-23.md new file mode 100644 index 00000000..577b5018 @@ -0,0 +1,639 @@ +--- +title: "Transcript: From Grumpy To Gleeful With Matt Odell | BTP Episode 23" +type: transcript +episode: from-grumpy-to-gleeful-with-matt-odell-btp-episode-23 +generated: true +date: 2025-09-20 +audio: "https://feeds.fountain.fm/R8scBF2Wiykm0YVldsHQ/items/YDDhVRXsx1Yb4TVqny4K/files/AUDIO---DEFAULT---0eb6d6ca-3219-4804-af3b-f2990f0e55af.mp3" +duration: "1:30:02" +sources: + - raw/episodes/from-grumpy-to-gleeful-with-matt-odell-btp-episode-23/bundle.json +--- + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1">0:01</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1" data-t="1">Hey, folks. This is Buster Cherry. I just wanted to let you know about a new Bitcoin podcast that is launching. Are you tired of listening to podcasts done by suits? Do you wanna hear content that affirms you doing nothing and makes you feel good about it? Do you wanna be told that you can change the world by buying $100</span> <span class="cue" id="t-19" data-t="19">hardware wallets</span> <span class="cue" id="t-20" data-t="20">using bitcoin only k y c exchanges running knots on a start nine server, as well as buying whatever the recent gadget is? Do you wanna hear macro gibberish that doesn't even make sense but confirms you are right? Well, Plebs Slop is the podcast for you by Plebs for Plebs.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-37" data-t="37">This podcast will complain about people doing things while making you feel good while you sit on your couch smoking weed and shit posting about David Bailey on Twitter. The co hosts Citizen Pleb and Toxic Plebnaute</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-49">0:49</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-49" data-t="49">will entertain you. This podcast can only be found on Fiat podcasting one point zero platforms because the hosts don't believe you should ever spend your bitcoin. Find the hosts on Twitter, not Noster because the UX is too hard. Now sit back, light a cigarette, and enjoy the show.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-79">1:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-79" data-t="79">The climate is abysmal.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-81" data-t="81">Plebs are grumpy.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-83" data-t="83">They're attacking podcasters,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-85" data-t="85">devs, and Suecoiners</span> <span class="cue" id="t-86" data-t="86">trying to cancel them for laughing at the plight of other plebs.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-90" data-t="90">Paper Bitcoin summer fizzled out before the first autumn leaves fell to the ground.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-96">1:36</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-96" data-t="96">Nostra has become a ghost protocol yet in the midst of all the chaos, Bitcoin is still trading well over 100,000</span> <span class="cue" id="t-103" data-t="103">tethers.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-105" data-t="105">Many are asking if all hope is lost,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-108" data-t="108">but all hope is not lost, not for pioneers.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-111" data-t="111">While the plebs are gnashing their teeth, the pioneers are blazing trails and building the foundation for the future.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-117" data-t="117">Hard times create strong men and folks, we are in hard times.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-124">2:04</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-124" data-t="124">Once seen as the grumpiest Bitcoin podcaster, our guest today says he is feeling gleeful and bullish.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-131" data-t="131">Known for his optimistic price predictions, prolific Bitcoin podcasting,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-135" data-t="135">noster only ish ethos,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-138" data-t="138">and being a true trailblazing</span> <span class="cue" id="t-140" data-t="140">pioneer of the value for value frontier. Today, we are joined by Matt O'Dell.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-145" data-t="145">Matt O'Dell is a man who has read the mandibles, has survived multiple bear markets, never succumb to the noise of the bull markets, except for that one time.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-155">2:35</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-155" data-t="155">And is true a true top g.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-159" data-t="159">Although a skeptic of listening to forty hours of Bitcoin podcast per week, he lives it.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-165" data-t="165">Mr. O'Dell admits to all this turmoil in the</span> <span class="cue" id="t-169" data-t="169">four turning,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-170" data-t="170">you've chosen to no longer be grumpy.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-173" data-t="173">What can the plebs learn from your example?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-178">2:58</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Kailey Welch</b> <span class="cue" id="t-178" data-t="178">It's,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-181">3:01</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-181" data-t="181">it's,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-183" data-t="183">you gotta just in in enjoy the journey.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-187" data-t="187">Have fun.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-190" data-t="190">That was a great intro.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-192" data-t="192">I wasn't expecting a question.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-195" data-t="195">Thank you for having me.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-197">3:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-197" data-t="197">It's It's good to be here. So we're we're taking over your studio. We're in Nashville.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-203" data-t="203">It's not it's not a bugle stream without me messing something up. So I I think I mistitled the stream. Are we live on Primal?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-210" data-t="210">We should be, but I think I'm pointing it to the wrong account. So Which account?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-214" data-t="214">Liberty Under Attack, I think.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-217">3:37</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-217" data-t="217">What account is that?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-219" data-t="219">It's a good account.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-222">3:42</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-222" data-t="222">It's a good</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-226">3:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-226" data-t="226">account. Under attack. Yeah.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-228" data-t="228">Dick Kreese does,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-229" data-t="229">DJ. He's like a doomsday DJ radio on Mondays for Liberty Under Attack. But</span> <span class="cue" id="t-235" data-t="235">while he's fixing that, I have a question for you, Matt. You I think you could be described you're a venture capitalist,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-242" data-t="242">a podcaster,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-244" data-t="244">an ostrich,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-246">4:06</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-246" data-t="246">a father,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-248" data-t="248">and a freak.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-249" data-t="249">How would you rank</span> <span class="cue" id="t-251" data-t="251">those five,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-253" data-t="253">you know, descriptions of yourself? How would you rank those in order of importance to you?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-262">4:22</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-262" data-t="262">Father, husband, Bitcoiner.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-267" data-t="267">Kath, you say don't take What?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-269">4:29</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-269" data-t="269">You don't take pride</span> <span class="cue" id="t-271" data-t="271">or at least as much pride as we do in being a Bitcoin podcaster.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-279">4:39</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-279" data-t="279">You know the the best. The podcasts</span> <span class="cue" id="t-282" data-t="282">were, like, kind of an accident,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-284" data-t="284">and then</span> <span class="cue" id="t-288" data-t="288">so I just kept doing them.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-290" data-t="290">I don't</span> <span class="cue" id="t-295" data-t="295">I don't know. The podcasts are are kind of, to me, are are are, like, more of a means into an end. I don't, like, think of myself as a podcaster,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-302">5:02</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-302" data-t="302">but I definitely am one, so</span> <span class="cue" id="t-304" data-t="304">maybe that's not relevant.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-308">5:08</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-308" data-t="308">Do you think you should have more pride? Should you be more proud to be a Bitcoin podcaster?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-316">5:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-316" data-t="316">I mean, I think I'd</span> <span class="cue" id="t-318" data-t="318">I I think we definitely, you know, take pride in our work in general. I mean, when I say we, me and Marty on RevPARTCAP, I mean, I think it's,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-326" data-t="326">to the point where</span> <span class="cue" id="t-329" data-t="329">it probably gets a little bit gratuitous how many times I say we've done it every week for seven years.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-334" data-t="334">But that's that specifically is pretty fucking crazy.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-340" data-t="340">It's borderline insane.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-343">5:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-343" data-t="343">We haven't taken a break.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-344" data-t="344">I had kids. Marty's dad died.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-347" data-t="347">Like, all the COVID shit.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-351" data-t="351">Evacuated New York.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-354" data-t="354">Gave Marty two masks and said, good luck. That was when we thought everyone's gonna die.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-359" data-t="359">March 2020. Still had RHR that week, though.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-363">6:03</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-363" data-t="363">I got married.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-368">6:08</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-368" data-t="368">It's been a turned your wedding into a podcast. I think that would have been really great. Is that it was actually really funny. I, I did wanna dox my</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-377">6:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-377" data-t="377">wedding day.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-379" data-t="379">So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-381" data-t="381">but Marty was at my wedding, but we did it remote.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-385" data-t="385">Why if I we we did it, like, remote in person so that the freaks wouldn't know.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-391" data-t="391">The</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-392">6:32</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-392" data-t="392">the reason we asked the question is because podcasters are becoming incredibly</span> <span class="cue" id="t-397" data-t="397">influential, and being a Bitcoin podcaster comes with a lot of responsibility.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-401" data-t="401">And I think or do you agree that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-404" data-t="404">at at the very least,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-406" data-t="406">Bitcoin podcasters should take themselves as seriously as Dennis Porter?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-412">6:52</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-412" data-t="412">Well, that's a pretty low bar.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-416" data-t="416">I mean, jokes aside, like, I think,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-419" data-t="419">I think it's pretty lame that people just, like, change their</span> <span class="cue" id="t-425" data-t="425">recommendations for, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-428" data-t="428">10 k.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-429" data-t="429">There</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-430">7:10</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-430" data-t="430">there's so many cheap</span> <span class="cue" id="t-432" data-t="432">cheap people in the in the Bitcoin space. Like, your your your self custody recommendations shouldn't, like, change based on who your sponsor is. It's a pretty</span> <span class="cue" id="t-442" data-t="442">it's a pretty sacred responsibility to, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-446" data-t="446">recommend how someone saves their life savings for their family.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-450" data-t="450">And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-453" data-t="453">it shouldn't change based on who pays you the most. And if it is going to, like, they should at least pay you more. It's</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-460">7:40</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-460" data-t="460">really fucking cheap.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-463">7:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-463" data-t="463">Yeah. We take that responsibility</span> <span class="cue" id="t-465" data-t="465">very seriously. That's why we</span> <span class="cue" id="t-468" data-t="468">only refer people to Office Depot</span> <span class="cue" id="t-472" data-t="472">for their paper wallet.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-474" data-t="474">I feel like this is safe. It is like, how can the Mossad infiltrate the paper</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-479">7:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-479" data-t="479">supply? No. No. The freaks do not</span> <span class="cue" id="t-483" data-t="483">I mean, they're obviously joking, but definitely do not use, like, a shared printer to print a fucking paper wallet. That's a horrible idea. No. Obviously not. What you do is you take a Sharpie, and you draw the QR code by hand.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-497" data-t="497">In the Office Depot?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-499" data-t="499">Cypherpunks use paper.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-502">8:22</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-502" data-t="502">I think Jay Weatherman would advise that you go to the forest and you cut down five separate trees,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-509" data-t="509">and you make your own paper out of the pulp, and you make and then you write your seed you know, you make your paper wall out of those five and then you put them in a in an envelope, and you spread them out across the country.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-525">8:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-525" data-t="525">I'm I'm I'm kind of annoyed that I can't see the live chat. Do we are we not live on Primal?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-531">8:51</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-531" data-t="531">Checked the AppStream. We should we should be.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-534">8:54</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-534" data-t="534">Oh, I can check the AppStream.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-537">8:57</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-537" data-t="537">Should we I mean, I could I could stop the stream and restart it. No. Don't do that.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-543">9:03</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-543" data-t="543">We have Lindy. I'm checking Brymo right now. I'm doing the I'm honoring the situation from, from a remote location.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-552">9:12</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-552" data-t="552">We might only be live on Twitter. This might actually be a problem.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-556">9:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-556" data-t="556">Yeah. I don't see it on well, I don't know how to necessarily confirm on primal.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-562">9:22</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-562" data-t="562">I don't see it on ZabStream.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-569" data-t="569">Where is it on Twitter? Is it on the Bugle account? Yeah. It's on the Bugle account.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-574">9:34</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-574" data-t="574">And I mislabeled</span> <span class="cue" id="t-576" data-t="576">the, the stream. I'm acting like an amateur too. We're live with Adele, and then another,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-583">9:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-583" data-t="583">then there's an exclamation point just on the second line.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-587" data-t="587">Pretty funny.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-594">9:54</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-594" data-t="594">You know, podcasts are serious business. It's hard to be hard.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-599" data-t="599">It's a lot harder to, like, stream live on, like, five different platforms at once. It's a lot harder than it looks.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-607">10:07</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-607" data-t="607">Yeah. Both of my shows are live shows. That definitely makes it much more difficult, I think.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-612">10:12</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-612" data-t="612">Yeah. You're you're a true pioneer.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-615">10:15</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-615" data-t="615">Thanks.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-617">10:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-617" data-t="617">You</span> <span class="cue" id="t-618" data-t="618">have been one of the biggest, longest advocates of the value for value ecosystem.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-622" data-t="622">Oh, yeah.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-623" data-t="623">We got the Citadel dispatch</span> <span class="cue" id="t-626" data-t="626">flag</span> <span class="cue" id="t-627" data-t="627">behind us.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-630">10:30</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-630" data-t="630">How do you how do you wanna be like, when when kids</span> <span class="cue" id="t-633" data-t="633">are learning about</span> <span class="cue" id="t-635" data-t="635">history and Bitcoin history</span> <span class="cue" id="t-638" data-t="638">in their Citadel schools</span> <span class="cue" id="t-639" data-t="639">fifty years from now,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-642" data-t="642">how do you think they're gonna write about you in the history books?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-645">10:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-645" data-t="645">I know. Hopefully, they don't at all. That would be the ideal situation.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-650">10:50</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-650" data-t="650">Well That's not an option. I don't</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-652">10:52</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-652" data-t="652">yeah. I think</span> <span class="cue" id="t-655" data-t="655">it's impossible</span> <span class="cue" id="t-656" data-t="656">because you've been</span> <span class="cue" id="t-658" data-t="658">you've been out in front of a lot of things and, you know, one of right now, Bitcoin Twitter is absolutely nothing but drama.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-666" data-t="666">But</span> <span class="cue" id="t-667" data-t="667">sometimes you know when there's some pretty spicy</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-671">11:11</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-671" data-t="671">industry drama</span> <span class="cue" id="t-672" data-t="672">when a screenshot,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-674" data-t="674">an ode to l screenshot from Noster starts going viral on x.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-679" data-t="679">And last spring,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-681" data-t="681">one of the one of these situations are where you</span> <span class="cue" id="t-684" data-t="684">it's where you called out Michael Saylor</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-688">11:28</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-688" data-t="688">for</span> <span class="cue" data-t="688">his,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-690" data-t="690">you know, he wanted to starve the corded's</span> <span class="cue" id="t-693" data-t="693">charitable donations, and you whipped all the clubs into quite a frenzy over that.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-698" data-t="698">But barely, you know, just over a year later,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-701" data-t="701">the tides have shifted dramatically.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-704">11:44</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-704" data-t="704">The plebs are very much on sailor's side. Sailors</span> <span class="cue" id="t-707" data-t="707">trashing the idea of</span> <span class="cue" id="t-710" data-t="710">donating</span> <span class="cue" id="t-712" data-t="712">to well intentioned core devs who just want to make Bitcoin better.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-718" data-t="718">How do you feel how do you feel about that old situation? Do you feel</span> <span class="cue" id="t-722" data-t="722">betrayed</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-723">12:03</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-723" data-t="723">by the plebs,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-724" data-t="724">or</span> <span class="cue" id="t-726" data-t="726">would you encourage them to rethink their position in this node client that have you taken a position in this node client battle?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-738">12:18</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-738" data-t="738">Well, I've there's a lot of pieces there. First of all,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-743" data-t="743">so, like, last year,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-746" data-t="746">it</span> <span class="cue" id="t-748" data-t="748">came to my attention,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-750" data-t="750">that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-751" data-t="751">Michael privately</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-753">12:33</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-753" data-t="753">was telling people</span> <span class="cue" id="t-756" data-t="756">not to support,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-759" data-t="759">the different organizations</span> <span class="cue" id="t-760" data-t="760">that are supporting open source developers in the Bitcoin space.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-767" data-t="767">And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-770" data-t="770">like, I first just wanted to, like, talk to him about it privately, and I I</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-774">12:54</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-774" data-t="774">believe it or not, like, I couldn't get</span> <span class="cue" id="t-777" data-t="777">I couldn't get in touch with him. I tried for a couple months.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-780" data-t="780">So, like, four months went by, five months went by.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-785" data-t="785">And then at that point, I really just got frustrated that it was just happening behind closed doors. Like, I just kinda wanted an open discussion about it.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-794" data-t="794">So I sent out two Nostra posts. And at that point, I was posting in all caps.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-800" data-t="800">So it probably came out much more aggressive,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-804">13:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-804" data-t="804">than I intended,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-806" data-t="806">which is I'll take responsibility for that because I posted it in all caps.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-811" data-t="811">But I was posting everything in all caps.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-815" data-t="815">I I and you can look back at the Nostra Post. Like, I intentionally</span> <span class="cue" id="t-820" data-t="820">did not</span> <span class="cue" id="t-822" data-t="822">put my judgment there about whether or not I thought</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-825">13:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-825" data-t="825">I mean, you can, like, kind of I've I've donated so much from my time to open sites. Like, you can kind of get my opinion from that just from, like, the proof of work there.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-834" data-t="834">But I intentionally was just, like, I just want people to talk about it and know about it.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-839" data-t="839">And a lot of the immediate reaction</span> <span class="cue" id="t-842" data-t="842">was specifically that I was lying about it.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-846" data-t="846">And as someone who</span> <span class="cue" id="t-848" data-t="848">has</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-849">14:09</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-849" data-t="849">been truthful and honest and very transparent in the space for a long time, Like, the accusations of being a liar is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-859" data-t="859">like, that fucking sucks. Like, that really frustrated me. So at this point now, when it's mostly people saying, like, Sailor was right and Odell was wrong, at least, like, they're admitting that I wasn't a liar. So I got that going for me. So that's a nice change of pace,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-874" data-t="874">because Sailor can't both be right and maybe a liar. Like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-878" data-t="878">logically,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-881" data-t="881">that's the case. I, you know, I think, look, people are they're</span> <span class="cue" id="t-885" data-t="885">everyone should have their own opinion. I think,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-888">14:48</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-888" data-t="888">you know, I there's no such thing as</span> <span class="cue" id="t-892" data-t="892">an invalid opinion.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-894" data-t="894">It's not like an objective thing. It's something that people subjectively have to decide on</span> <span class="cue" id="t-899" data-t="899">on what they think the best path forward is on on</span> <span class="cue" id="t-904" data-t="904">on open source development in general, not just in Bitcoin.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-908" data-t="908">But I would say that</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-911">15:11</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-911" data-t="911">the idea that there's a small group</span> <span class="cue" id="t-915" data-t="915">of</span> <span class="cue" id="t-917" data-t="917">developers</span> <span class="cue" id="t-918" data-t="918">that are working on</span> <span class="cue" id="t-921" data-t="921">the Bitcoin</span> <span class="cue" id="t-922" data-t="922">protocol and Bitcoin core</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-924">15:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-924" data-t="924">is a very real concern</span> <span class="cue" id="t-927" data-t="927">and is part of the reason that OpenSats exists in the first place</span> <span class="cue" id="t-930" data-t="930">because I think the answer there is actually</span> <span class="cue" id="t-933" data-t="933">I I personally think the answer there is more developers and more diverse funding</span> <span class="cue" id="t-938" data-t="938">and bringing more developers into the space that think differently and are, you know, running their own</span> <span class="cue" id="t-944" data-t="944">well maintained, well reviewed implementations. Like, I think more choice is better in general.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-949">15:49</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-949" data-t="949">I think</span> <span class="cue" id="t-950" data-t="950">if you try and do, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-953" data-t="953">a defund the police movement on</span> <span class="cue" id="t-957" data-t="957">open source developers,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-959" data-t="959">what you actually introduce is you introduce a situation where</span> <span class="cue" id="t-964" data-t="964">they become more desperate, and they'll take</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-968">16:08</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-968" data-t="968">questionable funding. Right? Like, the the concern that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-973" data-t="973">you know, maybe they're getting influenced by certain for profit companies and stuff like that. Like, to me, that concern becomes</span> <span class="cue" id="t-979" data-t="979">if you if you remove independent organizations like Open Sats</span> <span class="cue" id="t-983" data-t="983">that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-984" data-t="984">separates the donors from the actual grants,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-987" data-t="987">then the result you get is the situation we had. You you you get you get a situation where, like, a random for profit company is, like, paying core devs, like, $60,000</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-997">16:37</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-997" data-t="997">directly and says, like, merge the things that I wanna see.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1001" data-t="1001">So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1003" data-t="1003">to me,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1006" data-t="1006">I think that we were probably in a way worse position four years ago, five years ago in terms of</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1014" data-t="1014">how these open source contributors were getting funding because they were getting funding, like, directly from exchanges and stuff. And since then, we've seen</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1021" data-t="1021">HRF do their dev funding. We've seen OpenSaaS do the dev funding.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1026">17:06</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1026" data-t="1026">So they have more diverse independent options available to them, and I think that's a a pretty big win.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1033" data-t="1033">But, yeah, I'm just glad that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1036" data-t="1036">I'm glad that people are talking about it publicly and that it's not happening behind closed doors.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1042">17:22</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1042" data-t="1042">Okay. I kinda have two questions on that subject. So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1046" data-t="1046">one's a little bit unfair, but, or maybe it's not. You you since have talked to Saylor. Right? Yeah. We're actually on good terms. Yeah. So what do you think his standpoint is? And he wasn't he, like, he wasn't offended that I posted those master posts.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1061" data-t="1061">Does he is he just a big believer that paper Bitcoin is the best way to scale Bitcoin?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1069">17:49</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1069" data-t="1069">Look. I mean, obviously,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1072" data-t="1072">he is,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1073" data-t="1073">a massive holder of Bitcoin both personally and with his company. Right? So, like, he does have very strong incentive to see Bitcoin succeed. I mean, that's one of the cool parts about Bitcoin, right, is that anyone who owns Bitcoin is aligned and wanting to see Bitcoin succeed.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1090" data-t="1090">I think it was actually kinda interesting. I did an interview with him at the park, like, right over there,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1097" data-t="1097">a couple months after all of that.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1100" data-t="1100">And it was like</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1101">18:21</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1101" data-t="1101">a breaking bread kinda thing.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1106" data-t="1106">And I asked him specifically</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1108" data-t="1108">about</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1109" data-t="1109">well, first of all, he only had, like, forty minutes</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1113" data-t="1113">and, which means I get, like, four questions, like, three questions because he's he he always has very</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1119" data-t="1119">long answers.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1121">18:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1121" data-t="1121">But I asked him about</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1123" data-t="1123">Bitcoin used as money,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1125" data-t="1125">and I was actually kinda surprised. He said that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1132" data-t="1132">the main thing that he thinks is holding back is actually, like, US tax policy,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1136" data-t="1136">which is interesting because I think a lot of people, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1139" data-t="1139">assume that he just doesn't think</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1142">19:02</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1142" data-t="1142">people should or will spend Bitcoin.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1146" data-t="1146">But I</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1147" data-t="1147">if if it's just a tax policy argument,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1150" data-t="1150">then I think,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1154" data-t="1154">like, people are more aligned there than than people give them credit for.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1160" data-t="1160">Because, I mean, they the the tax policy specifically</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1164">19:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1164" data-t="1164">cap gains</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1166" data-t="1166">is like it's just it it adds such a mental burden. It adds such mental friction that it does hold back. I think it holds back adoption a lot of ways. But I think also at the same time, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1177" data-t="1177">it's just an order of operations thing. Like, I think it's gonna take time for people to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1182" data-t="1182">first end up with all their savings in Bitcoin. And then once all your savings is in Bitcoin, it's actually easier to spend Bitcoin than spend dollars.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1189" data-t="1189">Because if you're spending dollars, it means you have to actually sell the Bitcoin first to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1195" data-t="1195">spend in dollars.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1196">19:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1196" data-t="1196">So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1197" data-t="1197">first, we we first, Bitcoin is is used primarily as savings,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1202" data-t="1202">then,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1204" data-t="1204">people start spending it later. And I think good money, I it's weird because with Bitcoin, it's always been, like, the spend camp</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1211" data-t="1211">and then, like, the save camp</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1213" data-t="1213">because, like, people on social media like to be in,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1216">20:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1216" data-t="1216">like, tribes.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1218" data-t="1218">But</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1220" data-t="1220">you really for good money, you need both. Like, because if if you can't spend your savings without permission, then you have no value there.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1227" data-t="1227">Like, it's it's basically not your money. So you and you need to be able to do both, and they both work hand in hand together.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1235">20:35</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1235" data-t="1235">So you</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1236" data-t="1236">you think Sailor's</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1238" data-t="1238">being empathetic to people. He understands they they can't afford their taxes</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1243" data-t="1243">and that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1244" data-t="1244">Bitcoin's a savings vehicle to be able to afford your taxes.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1249" data-t="1249">And then if you spend your Bitcoin,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1251">20:51</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1251" data-t="1251">then you have to pay a Jewish accountant to help you figure out how to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1255" data-t="1255">be able to afford your taxes, and it's just expense after expense.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1259">20:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1259" data-t="1259">That's his that's his No. No. I don't think I don't think the the problem with tax policy is not affording it because you're only paying taxes on profit.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1267" data-t="1267">Right? Like, the way cap gains works</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1269" data-t="1269">is if you're pay you're paying a percentage, if it's if in America, it's long term cap gains, I think, on the federal level is, like, 20%.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1277" data-t="1277">But it's a percentage of of of your purchasing power increase. So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1281" data-t="1281">you're literally only paying cap gains</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1284" data-t="1284">if Bitcoin increases in purchasing power, which it which it does. So so in that real respect, like, obviously, you can afford it. The problem is just the mental burden of of, like, actually,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1297">21:37</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1297" data-t="1297">like, keeping track of it and reporting it and whatnot. I think that's</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1301">21:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1301" data-t="1301">the that's the You can afford it as long as you don't spend it before next April.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1306" data-t="1306">And according to, like, you know, this is just speculation. You're not the one tweeting from the ten thirty one Twitter account.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1314" data-t="1314">But according to that account,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1316">21:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1316" data-t="1316">Bitcoin is going much higher. It's a very high signal account. I don't know if you've noticed. There's a lot of bullshit that's going on Twitter right now, but,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1325" data-t="1325">if you want the signal signal</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1327" data-t="1327">through the noise, the ten thirty one Twitter account is really is really there for the pubs.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1333">22:13</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1333" data-t="1333">What about</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1334" data-t="1334">so Noster, we can get into this a little bit too, because it seems like Noster is kinda going through a little bit of a bear mark and all the drama</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1342" data-t="1342">is on x. So everybody wants to go to where the drama is, you got plebs who are</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1347" data-t="1347">fleeing Oster going to x. And then</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1352" data-t="1352">you've got Morty.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1353" data-t="1353">What's it like going through this for turning all this drama?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1356">22:36</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1356" data-t="1356">Is Martin didn't isn't so much on Oster, but I feel like he's probably spending forty hours per week reading Truth Social. Like, how do you pull Marty back from Truth Social</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1365" data-t="1365">and put her on a pod a good podcast and do do good work,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1369" data-t="1369">when everybody is just</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1371" data-t="1371">glued to the drama on the timeline,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1374" data-t="1374">including ostriches who are going to acts. Like, how do you get them back? How do you get the drama? We thought Vladimir</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1380" data-t="1380">might come to Noster</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1382">23:02</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1382" data-t="1382">when, he was crashing out over pay for Bitcoin summer.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1386" data-t="1386">He didn't last he he</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1388" data-t="1388">he thought it was an echo chamber. You got American HODL. He's doing he's posting vlogs</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1392" data-t="1392">vlogs.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1393" data-t="1393">How do you how do you draw the the plebs bat to Noster?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1398">23:18</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1398" data-t="1398">First of all,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1401" data-t="1401">you guys I think you guys are the main reason that you, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1405" data-t="1405">you, like, bullied off</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1407" data-t="1407">of x, and then you brought paper Bitcoin somewhere over to Nasr and then bullied him back to x.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1412" data-t="1412">So that that was all in you guys. That is correct. With that. I disagree. No. Platador</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1418">23:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1418" data-t="1418">went to Noster, and he realized that it was really difficult to delete his post, so then he left. Yeah. I think,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1426">23:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1426" data-t="1426">that's something that's really difficult for influencers</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1428" data-t="1428">on Nasr is that is the the no deletes.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1432" data-t="1432">So you have to actually stand behind what you say. And then the other thing is no blocks. Like, you can mute people, but you can't restrict your replies.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1439" data-t="1439">And I think,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1441" data-t="1441">you know, a lot of influencers like the safe space of being able to restrict who can reply to them,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1446" data-t="1446">and stop to reply guys.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1449">24:09</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1449" data-t="1449">So,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1450" data-t="1450">but to me, that's a feature, not a bug. And I think over time, as Nostra adoption increases, the fact that people can't restrict replies,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1459" data-t="1459">will just mean that we'll have more honest discourse will happen.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1463" data-t="1463">I, you know, I think,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1466" data-t="1466">Nostra is still incredibly early.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1469" data-t="1469">I think adoption is going pretty well. I think we're just starting to get to the point where, like, the apps are stable enough. Right? Specifically,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1476">24:36</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1476" data-t="1476">Primal is getting to a really stable point, and I've been heavily involved in building that out.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1482" data-t="1482">So I'm pretty happy. I'm I'm pretty happy with where we currently stand in terms of</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1488" data-t="1488">of Napster adoption. I it is pretty disappointing that we don't have more drama. I think it's funny that a lot of people say,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1496" data-t="1496">there's too much Bitcoiners on Nasr. It's like to me, it's like we don't have enough. Like, if you're gonna fight if Bitcoiners are gonna fight, it'd be great if they they fought on Nasr instead of x.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1506" data-t="1506">Mhmm. But I think it's just gonna be a grind thing. Like, I think it's a time thing. I don't think Noster is inevitable, but I think it is something that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1513" data-t="1513">would be a massive value add to society if if it does succeed.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1519">25:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1519" data-t="1519">And so there's a bunch of us that are gonna try and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1522" data-t="1522">try and bootstrap it and try and make it happen.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1525" data-t="1525">I think the live streaming with Zap specifically is a nice little edge that we have.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1531" data-t="1531">And then you mentioned American Huddl. Like, I don't think he gets enough credit for</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1537" data-t="1537">being active and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1539" data-t="1539">and,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1541">25:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1541" data-t="1541">posting good shit over there. And he's, like, he makes some really</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1545" data-t="1545">he makes some really great videos.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1547" data-t="1547">The Bitcoin Treasury video, the eighties theme I I thought that was fantastic. And that was really</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1554" data-t="1554">that video was</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1556" data-t="1556">a a big,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1557" data-t="1557">influence and, like, a inspiration for me or for not me, but</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1562">26:02</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1562" data-t="1562">me as well as the others who</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1564" data-t="1564">really were talking about Labor Bitcoin summer and this big,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1568" data-t="1568">this big event that it was. And I wanna clarify, we weren't a wholly in Twitter or a Planeter.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1574" data-t="1574">What we were doing was we were we were Planator was trying to avoid us, and we wanted him to know that he was invited to Paper Bitcoin Summer and there was nowhere</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1584" data-t="1584">that he could hide where we wouldn't find him and let him know that we wanted him to join us. And I think you make a good point about Noster, a lot of people don't like the ability to restrict</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1595" data-t="1595">the two way communication, the people being able to like,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1599">26:39</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1599" data-t="1599">a lot of people do want to avoid</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1602" data-t="1602">shinobi</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1603" data-t="1603">coming into their replies to call them retarded.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1606" data-t="1606">And I my advice is if you want people</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1609" data-t="1609">to stop calling you retarded, you have to stop being retarded.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1613" data-t="1613">And I think that Nostra is a place where you learn that more quickly. You get that feedback. You can't hide from the truth. Nostr, you can't hide from the truth. And I think that</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1623">27:03</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1623" data-t="1623">the problem, and we get back to it, is you can't delete your tweets. Well, cancel culture just kind of flipped</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1629" data-t="1629">sides a week ago.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1630" data-t="1630">And now there's a lot of it used to be safe to to post a, like, saying that Trump's meme coin was a shit coin. And now you could be sued for it, and now people are are trying to delete those tweets. And</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1642" data-t="1642">it's just a different you it's a different mindset.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1649">27:29</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1649" data-t="1649">Would you consider Plutterer an influencer?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1652">27:32</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1652" data-t="1652">Oh, 100%.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1654" data-t="1654">Would you not?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1658">27:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1658" data-t="1658">I don't know what that client he thinks he's a journalist, but</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1662">27:42</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1662" data-t="1662">Well, in Massey Madness, he was, he was in the influencer bracket. So</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1669">27:49</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1669" data-t="1669">I I Yes. You know, I think,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1672" data-t="1672">he plays an important role,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1675" data-t="1675">in the ecosystem,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1676" data-t="1676">and there is a lot of group think. And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1681" data-t="1681">there's, you know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1683" data-t="1683">he's I mean, he he definitely provides a unique perspective, right, that that most people aren't,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1691">28:11</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1691" data-t="1691">highlighting in a lot of ways. I will say that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1698" data-t="1698">at one point, he, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1701" data-t="1701">he posted</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1702" data-t="1702">about how ten thirty one was evil for</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1706" data-t="1706">dumping,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1708" data-t="1708">fold stock on retail,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1712">28:32</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1712" data-t="1712">and posted, like, a</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1714" data-t="1714">public document because</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1716" data-t="1716">publicly traded companies</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1718" data-t="1718">have to release, like, you know, all sorts of documentation.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1721" data-t="1721">And the public document he posted was,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1725" data-t="1725">about a credit deal that we set up for Fold</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1729">28:49</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1729" data-t="1729">where they for debt so that they could buy Bitcoin and put it on the balance sheet, and we hadn't sold any Fold stock.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1736" data-t="1736">I I</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1737" data-t="1737">I believe we still haven't.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1740" data-t="1740">And so the ten thirty one intern</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1744" data-t="1744">let him know, you know, what the facts of the situation were there, and he just, like, completely ignored it. And then it wasn't like, oh, I'm wrong. I think there's a there's a tendency of people to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1754" data-t="1754">not admit when they were wrong,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1757">29:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1757" data-t="1757">or don't know something.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1760" data-t="1760">And I I think it's fine to be wrong, I think, but you should own it.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1766" data-t="1766">And I've been wrong plenty of times, but it's important to own it.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1771">29:31</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1771" data-t="1771">It's a good point.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1773" data-t="1773">It's a good point.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1774" data-t="1774">Yeah. Let's let's talk about I wanted to circle back to OpenSats.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1780" data-t="1780">Yeah.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1781" data-t="1781">So what what type of purity test</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1784" data-t="1784">do you issue when you're,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1787">29:47</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1787" data-t="1787">evaluating developers that you're funding?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1790">29:50</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1790" data-t="1790">So, I mean,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1791" data-t="1791">that's the other thing that's you know? And and maybe we try and be as transparent as possible. I think we're probably one of the most transparent charities</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1801" data-t="1801">in the world, period.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1803" data-t="1803">And so all of our grants are public.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1805" data-t="1805">The the who we provide grants to. We're provide we've provided over 200 grants,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1812" data-t="1812">throughout our existence.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1814">30:14</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1814" data-t="1814">We don't say the amounts because it's a balancing act. Like, we don't wanna,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1819" data-t="1819">you know, basically,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1823" data-t="1823">dox people's,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1825" data-t="1825">you know, how much Bitcoin they might have or might be getting.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1829" data-t="1829">So it's been a balancing act. And I will say, like, what we've, like, probably provided nearly 250</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1834" data-t="1834">grants.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1836">30:36</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1836" data-t="1836">A lot of them are year long grants,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1839" data-t="1839">and I don't think a single grant recipient has they've they're will they're obviously completely,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1845" data-t="1845">allowed to tell people how much they make,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1848" data-t="1848">and none of them have chosen to do that. So, like, it's very it's very obvious to me that grant recipients do not want amounts to be known.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1856" data-t="1856">But, we and so, like, when people say, like, oh, like, open session be funding commie devs or this or that. It's like, okay. Well, which ones are the commies, and which ones are the ones we're funding? And no one ever gives me an answer on that. Like, they never tell me that. I will say that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1874" data-t="1874">the overwhelming majority of stuff we fund is actually, like, not protocol stuff.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1879">31:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1879" data-t="1879">We fund a few core developers.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1885" data-t="1885">I think we fund one maintainer.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1887">31:27</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1887" data-t="1887">Which ones? Just out of curiosity.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1889">31:29</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1889" data-t="1889">Fanquake.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1894" data-t="1894">I think we fund him. I think we partially fund him, and another organization</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1901">31:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1901" data-t="1901">I was hoping you say Gloria.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1903">31:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1903" data-t="1903">No. We don't fund Gloria.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1905" data-t="1905">But I like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1907" data-t="1907">the the whole the whole design of OpenSats</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1911" data-t="1911">was I is was was based on me seeing us seeing,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1916" data-t="1916">you know, inefficient,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1918" data-t="1918">corrupt</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1919">31:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1919" data-t="1919">charity organizations in the past.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1921" data-t="1921">So we're a 100% passed through by design. The board doesn't get paid anything.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1929" data-t="1929">And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1930" data-t="1930">and we have a we have a nine person board that's eight right now because,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1934" data-t="1934">Lisa stepped away,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1936" data-t="1936">earlier this year, so we need to replace her. But we have a nine person board that doesn't get paid, and then every grant</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1943">32:23</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1943" data-t="1943">basically comes in. We get an app,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1946" data-t="1946">and then it comes into this private GitHub repo.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1949" data-t="1949">And then</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1951" data-t="1951">the board members review it underneath, and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1955" data-t="1955">and then we all vote underneath as well. And so, like, if if a grant gets a simple majority gets five votes, then it gets approved. So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1964" data-t="1964">no single board member can force through</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1967">32:47</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1967" data-t="1967">grant applications.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1968" data-t="1968">No single board member can block those things.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1973" data-t="1973">And as a result, I think it's a more merit talk</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1978" data-t="1978">merit based process,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1982" data-t="1982">than a lot of other organizations.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1984" data-t="1984">And what's cool there, it means, like, those votes aren't public because I also don't think votes should be public because if votes are public, then you could pressure board members and</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1993">33:13</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1993" data-t="1993">do, like, social media mobs and stuff to get them to vote one way or the other. So that's why those votes aren't public. But we what it means is we have a full audit trail</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2001" data-t="2001">over every review process and every vote. So if we ever needed to,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2008" data-t="2008">release, like, an audit trail of why someone got a grant and how much they were getting and all that stuff, like, we have all of those records,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2015" data-t="2015">which I think is pretty cool.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2018" data-t="2018">And then we have a review process.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2020" data-t="2020">So so, usually, like, people</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2023">33:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2023" data-t="2023">have one year grants. We have long term support grants that are,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2027" data-t="2027">two years.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2029" data-t="2029">But then they're they're</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2031" data-t="2031">they're fixed in fiat</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2035" data-t="2035">on a yearly basis, and then they're paid out monthly</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2038" data-t="2038">in Bitcoin.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2039">33:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2039" data-t="2039">So, like, the Bitcoin exchange rate's fluctuating, but we send out about a million dollars of the Bitcoin</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2044" data-t="2044">every month to about 200 grant recipients in 40 plus countries.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2050" data-t="2050">And it's pretty fucking cool to see it all kinda come together.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2054" data-t="2054">I mean, the BitX project, we were the original funders of the BitX project.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2058" data-t="2058">I think that has been a massive success. I think we've seen a lot of success with Cashew. We're one of the largest funders at BTCPay Server.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2068" data-t="2068">And I think, you know, if you wanna supercharge</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2071">34:31</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2071" data-t="2071">I think open source development is a key piece of, you know, freedom in the digital age because it's not controlled by any individual. It's not controlled by a company.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2080" data-t="2080">And if you wanna supercharge that, it makes sense to me</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2084" data-t="2084">that you support developers so that they can work full time on this stuff instead of, you know, making it a hobby project on the side. Like, I would would these projects, you know, still happen? Probably. Would it would they take longer? Yeah. Like, is life short? Like, would I would I rather have Freedom Tools operating</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2101" data-t="2101">in two years than five years or ten years? Yeah. A 100%. Like, that's better for myself. That's better for everyone. That's better for our children.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2109" data-t="2109">So that's why OpenSets exist, to to supercharge it, but also provide,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2114" data-t="2114">you know, this funding in a relatively merit based,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2118">35:18</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2118" data-t="2118">independent,</span> <span class="cue" data-t="2118">transparent way as much as possible.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2122">35:22</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2122" data-t="2122">Do you think are are core devs who are funded by Open Sats, are they allowed to have sex? Or is it, like, a no ask, dumb ask, don't tell situation? Do you have a policy at all in their contracts?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2135">35:35</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2135" data-t="2135">No. We their sex life is completely,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2139" data-t="2139">independent from</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2141" data-t="2141">our review process.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2143" data-t="2143">I mean, look, the cool part the cool part about open source stuff is you actually have, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2148" data-t="2148">a pretty a relatively objective, like, proof of work</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2152" data-t="2152">track record for a lot of these developers.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2156">35:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2156" data-t="2156">So you can see, like, if they're actually</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2158" data-t="2158">doing things,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2160" data-t="2160">or if they're not.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2163" data-t="2163">And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2164" data-t="2164">they usually provide, like, a</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2168" data-t="2168">a road map of what they tend to work on.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2171">36:11</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2171" data-t="2171">And then when they give us reports, when they give us the quarterly reports, they say, you know, what they got done and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2177" data-t="2177">where they currently stand. And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2179" data-t="2179">but we're relatively loose about it. Like, if,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2185" data-t="2185">like, we we see situations where, like, you know, someone maybe they're doing out they're outside of protocol work. Right? Like, they're, like, making a Bitcoin wallet or something. Right? Like, we have, like, Cove Wallet,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2196" data-t="2196">which we just which we've been funding, which is a a self custody mobile based wallet.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2202" data-t="2202">But, like, let's say, for instance, you know, like he says in his road map, he's gonna release an iOS wallet, and then he, like, decides to pivot, and he's like, no. The App Store is, like, too difficult. Like, I'm just gonna release on Android or web or something like that. And he says it on a report. Like, that's completely fine. Like, we're not gonna be like, yo. You said you were gonna have a iOS wallet, and now you don't have an iOS wallet.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2223">37:03</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2223" data-t="2223">So we're, like, relatively loose about it, but, like, the key is, like</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2228" data-t="2228">like, don't</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2229" data-t="2229">just, like, take the money and do nothing.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2234" data-t="2234">You know? Just, like, fuck off and go on vacation or something. And we've actually only had</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2239" data-t="2239">maybe there's, like, nine grants that we've paused,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2242" data-t="2242">in the review process, and</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2244">37:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2244" data-t="2244">the overwhelming majority of them actually send back the Bitcoin, which is kinda crazy.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2248" data-t="2248">Because, like, obviously, it's Bitcoin. We can't call it back.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2253" data-t="2253">But they, like, feel bad when they send it back. They're like, oh, like, I had a family issue or something. I'm just gonna send it back.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2258">37:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2258" data-t="2258">They're not prime trust.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2261">37:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2261" data-t="2261">Yeah. They're not prime trust. No.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2263">37:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2263" data-t="2263">Maybe that's the</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2265" data-t="2265">compromise though to all this drama on Twitter is to pay debts,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2271" data-t="2271">not to do anything.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2272" data-t="2272">Maybe that's what we have to do. It's like pay all these debts to not</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2276" data-t="2276">tinker with Bitcoin. Maybe that's what some people want.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2281">38:01</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2281" data-t="2281">I mean, I if if,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2285" data-t="2285">if if the goal is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2288" data-t="2288">to get</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2289" data-t="2289">developers that you don't want to work on Bitcoin, to stop working on Bitcoin,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2293" data-t="2293">then, yeah, that actually probably would be pretty effective. It'd be to just, like, pay the job, like, shit.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2299">38:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2299" data-t="2299">Money. Sailor doesn't want anybody to tinker with Bitcoin. He can just pay them to stay away. Everybody who knows how to code,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2305" data-t="2305">just pay them to not tinker with Bitcoin. And the solution is it's like the people who don't like the spam, it's like, then just buy Blot Space</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2312" data-t="2312">and price out the spammers.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2314" data-t="2314">Buy off the developers</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2317" data-t="2317">to not code. I think that is maybe that's what we need to tell Saylor to do.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2323">38:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2323" data-t="2323">Yeah. I mean,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2324" data-t="2324">if</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2325" data-t="2325">look. I,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2328" data-t="2328">jokes aside, like, I I think,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2332" data-t="2332">there's a lot of maintenance and, like, efficiency improvements that can be done at Bitcoin without protocol changes.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2338" data-t="2338">I think,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2340">38:60</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2340" data-t="2340">actually, like, the nuts</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2342" data-t="2342">people mostly agree with this because, like, Luke is constantly shipping updates and making his own tweaks.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2349" data-t="2349">But if you believe that there isn't and you believe that we don't need any, you know, more maintenance work or</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2356" data-t="2356">or, like, efficiency gains and stuff like that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2360" data-t="2360">then, like, why are people arguing about running knots? Like, just run v 28 forever,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2366" data-t="2366">v 29 forever,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2368">39:28</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2368" data-t="2368">not upgrade.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2369" data-t="2369">You don't need the developers. Like, you can just do that.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2373" data-t="2373">But I think everyone is implicitly saying, like, no. That's not the case because that's why they, you know, that's why they want a</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2381" data-t="2381">separate,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2382" data-t="2382">well reviewed, maintained implementation and have more choice going forward. Because if that wasn't the case, then you could just always run the old one. I will say that on the consensus stuff,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2392" data-t="2392">like, actual soft forks and stuff, I think that ship has mostly sailed, like, except for</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2398">39:58</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2398" data-t="2398">a few</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2400" data-t="2400">maybe very urgent things that have like, if something urgent and absolutely necessary</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2406" data-t="2406">had to happen,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2407" data-t="2407">we might see a a soft fork in the future, but at least in the near I I</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2412" data-t="2412">I don't think, like, these things like covenants or anything that like CTV or whatever.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2418" data-t="2418">I don't think any of that's gonna happen.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2422">40:22</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2422" data-t="2422">And I think policy changes, like how nodes relay transactions and stuff that are not consensus based,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2429" data-t="2429">you know, should should be up to the node operator on how they want to to run that.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2435" data-t="2435">But it's, like, not, you know, it's not changing the protocol.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2439" data-t="2439">So I think there's a little bit of a conflation between, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2442" data-t="2442">bad changes to the protocol versus, like, how a node relays transactions and what node what a node keeps in its mempool.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2451" data-t="2451">And I actually I would just say, like, I in general, I lean more</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2455">40:55</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2455" data-t="2455">on the sailor side,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2457" data-t="2457">in terms of</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2460" data-t="2460">of, first of all, like, breaking changes to Bitcoin, which would be a hard fork. But, also, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2466" data-t="2466">on the soft fork side, like, I think we should be very, very conservative</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2470" data-t="2470">if if if there are any soft forks going forward on to Bitcoin.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2475" data-t="2475">And it should only be when it's absolutely necessary.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2481">41:21</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2481" data-t="2481">Like, there there is there is a concern that that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2486" data-t="2486">you could have a change that's a bad change.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2488" data-t="2488">And so Bitcoin is working right now. It is the base of a global financial system,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2494" data-t="2494">and my entire fam my family relies on it. My businesses rely on it. Like, my whole life relies on Bitcoin.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2501" data-t="2501">Like, I really don't want to fuck it up. I don't want developers to fuck it up. And so</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2507" data-t="2507">everyone needs to be as conservative as possible.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2511">41:51</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2511" data-t="2511">Do you think that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2512" data-t="2512">is there so there's this growing</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2514" data-t="2514">crowd of people</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2517" data-t="2517">that say that there's too many Bitcoin podcasts.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2521" data-t="2521">Do you think that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2523" data-t="2523">the proponents of that believe that because there's too diverse of opinions? They want protocol changes like CTV,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2530">42:10</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2530" data-t="2530">and that having too many podcasters with different opinions cause problems for that.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2535">42:15</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2535" data-t="2535">I mean, I think the problem on the Bitcoin podcast side is, like, we don't have enough</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2540" data-t="2540">podcasts.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2541" data-t="2541">I think it's it's,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2544" data-t="2544">there's a lot of group think out there. Like, there's not a lot of independent opinions.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2549" data-t="2549">I think people are more or less scared to say how they actually feel or actually or haven't been able to do the work to actually have their own opinion.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2558" data-t="2558">And, usually, they just repeat whatever their sponsors,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2562">42:42</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2562" data-t="2562">tell them to think.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2564" data-t="2564">So I would like to actually see more. I think this I think</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2567" data-t="2567">more education is good in general. I think,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2571" data-t="2571">more tools is better in general.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2574" data-t="2574">You know? I think,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2575" data-t="2575">more Bitcoin companies is better in general. I think more open source Bitcoin projects is better in general.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2581">43:01</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2581" data-t="2581">And we just need more and more and more,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2585" data-t="2585">and that's just a net win for everybody. And it's so so how do you grow that pie?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2591" data-t="2591">How do you make it more,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2595" data-t="2595">accessible?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2596">43:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2596" data-t="2596">I think I've got an easy answer to that. I think OpenShots</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2600" data-t="2600">should be looking at funding open source podcasting</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2604" data-t="2604">in general.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2606">43:26</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2606" data-t="2606">I, we did we were funding education for a bit,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2610" data-t="2610">which we pulled back on.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2613" data-t="2613">So, like, technically, that could kind of kind of fall into that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2617" data-t="2617">field.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2618" data-t="2618">I will say that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2622" data-t="2622">the cool part about OpenSats funding developers</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2625">43:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2625" data-t="2625">is, like I said, open source developers specifically</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2627" data-t="2627">have,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2628" data-t="2628">like, a</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2630" data-t="2630">a verifiable,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2631" data-t="2631">track record that you can</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2633" data-t="2633">base your grant decisions on. Right? Like, you actually have</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2637">43:57</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2637" data-t="2637">you have commits and releases and projects that you can, like, actually, like, audit and look at</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2642" data-t="2642">and review.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2644" data-t="2644">When you start funding things like education or we've seen, you know, some organizations fund, like, you know, so called Bitcoin circular economies like a Bitcoin beach or something like that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2655" data-t="2655">it becomes much more subjective</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2657" data-t="2657">on on</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2659" data-t="2659">if work is being done, how much progress is being made. So it becomes much more difficult. I mean, I think other organizations</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2666">44:26</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2666" data-t="2666">it does it makes sense to me that other organizations,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2669" data-t="2669">you know, could</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2671" data-t="2671">or maybe even should fund these things.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2676" data-t="2676">Well, I'm thinking about I, like, I I personally don't think, like, OpenSAT should do all of the things, and I I want to see more organizations</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2684" data-t="2684">bloom in general. Like, we've we've helped support multiple independent organizations</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2690" data-t="2690">that specialize in different aspects</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2693">44:53</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2693" data-t="2693">of of Bitcoin,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2695" data-t="2695">and,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2696" data-t="2696">we'd like to see a thousand flowers bloom. Like, I don't want OpenSats to be a single point of failure. The whole point of OpenSats in the first place</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2703" data-t="2703">was to distribute</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2705" data-t="2705">what we saw as centralized funding in the first place and add another option to the table.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2711" data-t="2711">So, like, if you don't like how OpenSats does things,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2714">45:14</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2714" data-t="2714">one of the most productive things you can do is actually launch another organization, I think.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2719" data-t="2719">But then last but not least, like, on the value for value side, like, I think direct funding is the best because then you don't have a middleman in the first place.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2729" data-t="2729">And I I I think this is another reason why,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2734" data-t="2734">specifically, the work that's being done on primal is so important because you if you make the interface</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2739" data-t="2739">for supporting</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2741" data-t="2741">both creators and open source devs,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2745">45:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2745" data-t="2745">much easier,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2746" data-t="2746">much more, like, fun and almost gamified,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2750" data-t="2750">with that nice social signal built in with Zaps, I think what you see is you see more people actually do it. I think a lot of people wanna support,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2758" data-t="2758">their favorite podcast or or their their their favorite open source project, but it's it it can be it can be difficult and so then they get</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2767" data-t="2767">so then the friction stops them from doing it. But, like, if you for instance, like, if if if Craig Ra posts, like, a new Sparrow wallet update,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2776" data-t="2776">like, zap that shit. You know? So, like, that is is strictly better than I'm getting funding from an OpenSats. Like, I think users should be funding</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2784">46:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2784" data-t="2784">the developers directly if they if they appreciate their work and same with podcasts</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2789">46:29</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2789" data-t="2789">and other education. What do you think about what do you think about? Like, there's this company called Lightning Bounties where you can put a lightning</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2796" data-t="2796">payment bounty on a project or something on GitHub.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2800" data-t="2800">If somebody actually goes implements it, it gets merged into the good to the project.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2805" data-t="2805">They automatically get a payout from it. Like, what about using</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2808" data-t="2808">bounties in this way? Where it's like, instead of me just funding you to go</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2814" data-t="2814">put whatever you want on Bitcoin, like a very specific change, a very specific</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2819">46:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2819" data-t="2819">fix, a very specific</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2821" data-t="2821">feature, and it goes on a bounty and if it ultimately makes it into a release,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2826" data-t="2826">then you can get paid for that instead of, you know,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2830">47:10</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2830" data-t="2830">the alternative. I think bounties are interesting. I think it's also hard to do bounties</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2835" data-t="2835">effectively, though.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2836" data-t="2836">So we've kinda shied away from it</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2839" data-t="2839">for the most part. I I mean, the problem with bounties is, first of all,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2843" data-t="2843">you have to make them very, very specific and objective,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2846" data-t="2846">because</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2848">47:28</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2848" data-t="2848">if they're vague in any kind of way,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2851" data-t="2851">there's gonna be arguments on who qualifies for the bounty and who should get paid out and if someone should get paid out or not.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2859" data-t="2859">The second problem you have is you have people do, like, the bare minimum</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2863" data-t="2863">amount of work to get a bounty.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2868" data-t="2868">But I will say that we've we've had some successes. Like, we did a bounty program in partnership with HRF and Strike</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2874" data-t="2874">couple years ago,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2877">47:57</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2877" data-t="2877">and that was actually what birthed Cashew,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2880" data-t="2880">which I think has been a pretty successful project, and it's been pretty cool to watch. Like, Cali basically saw the bounty go up and then, like, in three weeks, released the first Cashew wallet,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2889" data-t="2889">and claimed the bounty.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2892" data-t="2892">So there's definitely success stories there.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2895" data-t="2895">But as someone who has, you know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2899" data-t="2899">had to debate about whether or not someone qualifies for a bounty or not, it it gets it can get really dicey,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2905">48:25</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2905" data-t="2905">and it's hard to do right.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2909">48:29</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2909" data-t="2909">I think</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2911" data-t="2911">yeah. So you kinda flipped the tables on me. So it sounds like I care</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2915" data-t="2915">about open source podcasting, so I should, endeavor on this. Like, I'd like to see the bid acts of microphones.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2923" data-t="2923">That's pretty cool. The,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2925" data-t="2925">the Shure SM seven b, the one that you're using Yeah. It's like the the flagship of Bitcoin podcasters,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2932" data-t="2932">and I think there's a centralization</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2934">48:54</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2934" data-t="2934">risk.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2936" data-t="2936">Podcasting is just like mining.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2939">48:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2939" data-t="2939">I think it's funny that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2945" data-t="2945">I I don't know. Like, I the the cool part about, podcasting today, in my opinion, is that you can just, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2953" data-t="2953">you know, use your laptop's mic,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2955" data-t="2955">and you don't have to go buy fancy equipment. Like, just ship a podcast.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2960" data-t="2960">Just, like, do it.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2962" data-t="2962">You can iterate over time. Like, I think people overthink a lot of things. I'm a big believer in just, like, diving in head first into things</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2969">49:29</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2969" data-t="2969">and figuring it out as you go.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2974" data-t="2974">And,</span> <span class="cue" data-t="2974">I think,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2975" data-t="2975">with podcasting</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2977" data-t="2977">as well, that's,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2979" data-t="2979">is, like, very valid thing. I also, like, hate when people,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2985">49:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2985" data-t="2985">like, they sit on a show for, like, three weeks or four weeks.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2989" data-t="2989">They just fucking release the thing.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2992" data-t="2992">And that's why some of my shows are live. Unedited Yeah. Immediately ship it out.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2997">49:57</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2997" data-t="2997">That was that was, like, a too fast.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2999">49:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2999" data-t="2999">Yeah. Taking three weeks to edit your podcast, that was, like, a third turn or yeah.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3004" data-t="3004">It's not a fourth turning activity.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3007" data-t="3007">That's for sure.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3009">50:09</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3009" data-t="3009">I agree.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3011">50:11</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3011" data-t="3011">So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3012" data-t="3012">one thing that I thought was really important I wanna talk to you about</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3016" data-t="3016">before we get into the fountain base,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3021" data-t="3021">how close are we to the mandibles right now? And did Marty Ben ever read the book? He never read the book. No.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3027">50:27</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3027" data-t="3027">You know, I think,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3029" data-t="3029">what people so the mandibles to, like, the 10 people that don't know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3034" data-t="3034">what it is is a book about,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3036" data-t="3036">hyperinflation in The United States. I think one piece that, people miss about it is that it's specifically based in New York. So, like, you only see the New York City perspective for the most part,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3047" data-t="3047">without giving away too many spoilers. But,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3051" data-t="3051">it makes sense to me that</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3054">50:54</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3054" data-t="3054">as we see,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3057" data-t="3057">the institutions we rely on,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3061" data-t="3061">even more trust get eroded from them and and and the dollar continuing to just</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3066" data-t="3066">just bleed value,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3069" data-t="3069">as in, you know, like, inflation's just running away at this point. And it's not you know? The the numbers they give you on inflation are just absolutely bullshit. Like, it's really double digits,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3080" data-t="3080">and you can just see it from, like, the cost of groceries and everyday things. Like, people aren't idiots.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3087">51:27</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3087" data-t="3087">So I think that will happen. And then I think the question is, what is the timing?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3092" data-t="3092">And now I I think</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3094" data-t="3094">in Mandibles,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3095" data-t="3095">specifically,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3096" data-t="3096">like, she thought Bitcoin was gonna fail. And in her defense,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3100" data-t="3100">I think she wrote she wrote the book almost ten years ago,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3104">51:44</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3104" data-t="3104">which it was probably more likely at that point that Bitcoin could fail or would fail. So I think in a world where we have Bitcoin</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3110" data-t="3110">and you have a,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3113" data-t="3113">basically, a seamless path to switching to better money,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3116" data-t="3116">it should reduce the impact</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3119" data-t="3119">on how severe everything is because people will have an option. Right? People will have an an out.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3125" data-t="3125">But then it also depends on, like, where you are in the world</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3128">52:08</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3128" data-t="3128">and what is your local jurisdiction like and what is your local community like. And so there'd be places</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3134" data-t="3134">that will you know, it won't be as severe, and then there'll be other places that'll just be fucking horrible. And, like, specifically, like, the big cities</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3142" data-t="3142">on the coasts,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3144" data-t="3144">that are, like, horribly run and have, like, huge populations.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3148" data-t="3148">Like, it's gonna be worse there. And we're seeing that in New York right now with, like, mom Donnie, like, a just a a vowed socialist who, like, never had a job,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3157" data-t="3157">likely winning the mayoral race there.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3161">52:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3161" data-t="3161">These are, like, the early warning signs for this type of thing.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3165" data-t="3165">And I think it's important as part specifically, if you have a family, like, I think it's really important to think about these things and plan for the worst and hope for the best. You know? Like, maybe</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3177" data-t="3177">maybe it doesn't it's not as bad as it looks like.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3180" data-t="3180">But I will say that, you know, when you see smaller economies like Argentina and stuff go through hyperinflation, it's inflation, it's absolutely brutal.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3187" data-t="3187">Now imagine that with a global reserve currency,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3191" data-t="3191">and,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3192">53:12</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3192" data-t="3192">it it should be significantly worse because, you know, the whole world relies on the dollar.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3199" data-t="3199">I cannot when argent when Argentina</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3202" data-t="3202">peso is failing, like, people flood to the dollar.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3205" data-t="3205">When the dollar is failing, where do you flood to? Well, like, you have gold and you have Bitcoin.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3210" data-t="3210">So it's good that we have that that that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3214" data-t="3214">alternative that we have a good money.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3216">53:36</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3216" data-t="3216">Because if you don't have that, then it'd be significantly</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3219" data-t="3219">worse.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3223">53:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3223" data-t="3223">You know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3224" data-t="3224">thinking about that, thinking about, like, people fleeing to the dollar and and places in the global South where it's kind of their lifeline. It makes me think of my</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3233" data-t="3233">most valuable Bitcoiner,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3235" data-t="3235">who is Paulo from Tether.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3238" data-t="3238">And in these kind of situations, like, we don't wanna see</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3241" data-t="3241">Tethers hyperinflate,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3243">54:03</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3243" data-t="3243">but</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3244" data-t="3244">what who is your</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3246" data-t="3246">most valuable</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3248" data-t="3248">Bitcoiner</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3249" data-t="3249">at, you know, just for twenty twenty twenty five? And is it is it a podcaster?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3258">54:18</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3258" data-t="3258">I mean, I think we're very lucky to have Cali working on open source Bitcoin stuff. I think Cassey is fucking awesome. I think it's been impressive to to watch it, you know, be an open become an open protocol that is much bigger than just him,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3273" data-t="3273">with many different wallets.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3274" data-t="3274">I think his work on BitChat,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3276" data-t="3276">has been really cool too. I think BitChat's pretty exciting.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3282">54:42</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3282" data-t="3282">The other Zoomers in into, in Nepal,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3285" data-t="3285">were going full tally mode using Bitchat to overthrow</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3289" data-t="3289">a very corrupt state. So it any</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3293" data-t="3293">Pretty cool. Progress and action right there.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3296">54:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3296" data-t="3296">So I think that's pretty pretty fucking cool. I think Craig Rauch is, like, is the constant fucking legend.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3303" data-t="3303">Like, I</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3304" data-t="3304">fucking rely on Sparrow. My businesses rely on Sparrow.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3308" data-t="3308">Open SaaS relies on Sparrow. My family relies on Sparrow. Like, that fucking piece of software is unparalleled.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3315" data-t="3315">So we're very lucky to have that.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3321" data-t="3321">But, yeah, I mean, I think this new.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3323">55:23</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3323" data-t="3323">What?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3324">55:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3324" data-t="3324">I was just gonna say, I think using Sparrow, like, I wanna start I wanna</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3330" data-t="3330">launch the term raw dogging, cold storage,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3333" data-t="3333">raw dogging, self storage, but as a tribute to Craig.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3338">55:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3338" data-t="3338">Why would it be a tribute to Craig?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3341">55:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3341" data-t="3341">Because his last name is Raw.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3343" data-t="3343">Oh,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3346">55:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3346" data-t="3346">thank you for explaining that to me.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3349" data-t="3349">You're welcome.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3352">55:52</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3352" data-t="3352">It's a great last name.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3355">55:55</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3355" data-t="3355">It is a good last name.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3360">55:60</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3360" data-t="3360">Well, yeah. So one of one of the things we do on all our interviews is,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3364" data-t="3364">we read the fountain pages from the previous episode, the previous interview. Nice.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3369" data-t="3369">Rob Hamilton told you to listen to our last one. I it sounded like you didn't. We had Portland Auto on. I didn't listen to it. No.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3377" data-t="3377">What's your aversion to listening to forty hours of Bitcoin podcast?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3382">56:22</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3382" data-t="3382">I think forty hours is a little bit aggressive. I think, like, if you listen to, like, a humble, like, four hours a week, it's pretty good.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3389">56:29</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3389" data-t="3389">Which ones?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3392">56:32</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3392" data-t="3392">I mean, that's a good question.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3395" data-t="3395">I've been listening to,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3397" data-t="3397">a Malar show a decent amount now.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3400" data-t="3400">His, like, weekly macro show. You you're not concerned with his broccoli haircut? No. No. I think that's a feature, not a bug. Why?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3409" data-t="3409">I don't know. I'm just being provocative. I don't really think about his haircut at all.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3414" data-t="3414">I,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3416">56:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3416" data-t="3416">I think it's pretty crazy how much success he's found with that show so quickly,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3420" data-t="3420">and it does cover</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3422" data-t="3422">you know, it's it's it's I I like it because it's, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3426" data-t="3426">kind of, like, weekly topical news,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3429" data-t="3429">and specifically macro stuff, which I've never been stronger on. I've been it has never been my strong suit.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3436" data-t="3436">I, you know, occasionally listen to Marty's shows.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3440">57:20</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3440" data-t="3440">You know, I'll occasionally listen to Danny's shows.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3443">57:23</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3443" data-t="3443">It's hard not to listen to Marty's shows when you see the open thumbnail open mouth thumbnail on YouTube. I fucking hate the and Marty's not the only one guilty of that, but,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3455">57:35</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3455" data-t="3455">the YouTube algorithm has just really</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3458" data-t="3458">it's amazing what people will do for, like, a couple more listeners.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3462" data-t="3462">I'm hoping that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3465" data-t="3465">I'm hoping that we can,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3466" data-t="3466">you know, provide</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3468" data-t="3468">a more incentive aligned path with primal,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3472">57:52</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3472" data-t="3472">on the video and the podcasting</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3474" data-t="3474">side and,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3476" data-t="3476">because I fucking I, like, I hate those I hate the thumbnails. I hate the clickbait.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3484">58:04</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3484" data-t="3484">You got me with the last episode of,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3486" data-t="3486">RHR. I saw the open mouth thumbnails and clicked on it right away.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3492">58:12</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3492" data-t="3492">Yeah. Well, to be clear, like, I'm against our YouTube,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3496" data-t="3496">on our HR.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3497" data-t="3497">I don't handle that.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3499" data-t="3499">So how far how far do you think Marty's gonna take it? We don't do those thumbnails on the podcast feed or on roster.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3507" data-t="3507">The</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3510" data-t="3510">RHR</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3511">58:31</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3511" data-t="3511">uses Marty's TFTC</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3513" data-t="3513">YouTube account.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3517" data-t="3517">It always has. It doesn't have its own YouTube account. And then, like, if you look at the exact opposite, like, still dispatch which I manage, like, there's no click date. There's no thumbnails, and, like, we're basically</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3527" data-t="3527">shadow banned</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3529" data-t="3529">on YouTube.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3530" data-t="3530">No ads.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3532">58:52</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3532" data-t="3532">Like, YouTube prioritizes</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3533" data-t="3533">on the algo,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3536" data-t="3536">anything that shows YouTube ads.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3541" data-t="3541">So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3542" data-t="3542">it's like you're kinda damned if you do damned if you don't. It's a little it's it's,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3547" data-t="3547">it's a fucked up situation.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3549">59:09</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3549" data-t="3549">So I don't really blame I like, particularly people that are like, that's their main source of income. I think it was where a lot of the issues stem from,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3560" data-t="3560">because you just have to go to, like, the lowest common denominator slot bullshit.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3566" data-t="3566">I I don't know what the solution to that is. Maybe zaps</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3569" data-t="3569">play a piece.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3571" data-t="3571">Maybe Algo Choice and No Algo</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3573" data-t="3573">stuff plays a piece.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3575">59:35</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3575" data-t="3575">Maybe webs of trust play a piece, but,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3579" data-t="3579">it's, like, pretty dark where we are in, like, social landscape right now.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3584" data-t="3584">And there's no easy solutions. Like, I don't it's not healthy. Whatever we're currently doing is not healthy,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3590" data-t="3590">but I don't pretend to have the answers on, like, what the solution is.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3595">59:55</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3595" data-t="3595">I'm just curious how far it's gonna go.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3598">59:58</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3598" data-t="3598">What do you mean?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3600">59:60</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3600" data-t="3600">Well, we're we're getting this weird, you know, people</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3604" data-t="3604">have their their AI girlfriends now. Yep.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3608" data-t="3608">That's a new thing. Yeah. That's pretty dark. Yeah.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3612" data-t="3612">Or or, like, is Marty gonna have to do, like, bikini anime picture thumbnails</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3618" data-t="3618">in the future to grab attention? Like, how far does this go?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3622">1:00:22</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3622" data-t="3622">Yeah. I mean, I don't think he will do that.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3626" data-t="3626">But,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3630" data-t="3630">on the AI sex bot stuff, like, I think</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3633" data-t="3633">I mean, you wanna talk about dark.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3636" data-t="3636">I think if if</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3638" data-t="3638">if Elon releases a robot</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3641">1:00:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3641" data-t="3641">or or or releases a way for you to have VR</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3645" data-t="3645">sex that feels</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3647" data-t="3647">as good as real sex or close,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3650" data-t="3650">like, half half of society just, like, immediately checks out. Like, I think that's a pretty dark path to think about. And it's probably gonna happen because there's definitely demand for it.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3661" data-t="3661">But,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3662">1:01:02</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3662" data-t="3662">I wonder if the mechanic will will think it's okay for core devs to have sex with the R bots.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3669">1:01:09</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3669" data-t="3669">What's your fascination with core devs having sex?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3672">1:01:12</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3672" data-t="3672">It's not ours. We're we're not we're just we're we're we took a stance that it's okay for them to have sex. That's really that's really big of you.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3680">1:01:20</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3680" data-t="3680">It's important.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3684">1:01:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3684" data-t="3684">Some of the purity tests, they goes they go too far.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3692">1:01:32</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3692" data-t="3692">That's definitely true.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3698">1:01:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3698" data-t="3698">Well, Rod, do you have anything before we go into the fountain booth?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3703">1:01:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3703" data-t="3703">No. Let's do let's do the burst.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3705">1:01:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3705" data-t="3705">Cool.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3708" data-t="3708">So we interviewed Portland Hoddle. It was a great episode.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3712" data-t="3712">He was he was the big villain on,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3715" data-t="3715">on Twitter for a little bit.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3719">1:01:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3719" data-t="3719">Yeah. I mean, I think what he did with the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3724" data-t="3724">trying to use intentionally use up the bandwidth of people's home nodes was pretty fucked up, to be honest.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3729" data-t="3729">Well, he didn't do it. He just talked about it. Oh, well, if he did it, it was fucked up.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3735">1:02:15</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3735" data-t="3735">Yeah. He's I think he's writing a book if I did it, but he would tie he's just gonna talk about how the attack worked, but he didn't actually do it. And nobody's been able to to provide</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3744" data-t="3744">Comcast cable bills</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3746" data-t="3746">to, you know, corroborate</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3749" data-t="3749">the accusations.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3750" data-t="3750">We've seen no logs.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3753">1:02:33</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3753" data-t="3753">Fair enough.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3758">1:02:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3758" data-t="3758">But, yeah, it was a great interview.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3762" data-t="3762">Rob Hamilton,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3763" data-t="3763">first boost, twenty one thousand sats, like, 20</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3766" data-t="3766">laughing emojis.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3770" data-t="3770">What do you think? Like, is is Rob Hamilton's giggling</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3774" data-t="3774">problematic?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3775">1:02:55</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3775" data-t="3775">Should you stop laughing?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3778">1:02:58</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3778" data-t="3778">I don't think Rob can do what he wants to do. Rob's a friend.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3781" data-t="3781">I definitely don't agree with him on everything.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3787">1:03:07</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3787" data-t="3787">Do you agree with him on miniscript?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3790">1:03:10</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3790" data-t="3790">I think it's pretty cool.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3791" data-t="3791">I I mean, it's really it's cool what they were able to build with Anchor Watch using it.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3800" data-t="3800">I think it's like a it doesn't make sense to me that, like, people,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3808" data-t="3808">like, care what a company's node preferences are for, like, a nonconsensus</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3813" data-t="3813">change.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3816" data-t="3816">I think that's a little bit weird, but, you know, people like cancel culture stuff. So</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3821">1:03:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3821" data-t="3821">maybe that's just more endemic of our current society.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3825" data-t="3825">On the Gigglegate,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3826" data-t="3826">specifically, I think it was, like, kind of a bad look for</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3829" data-t="3829">to laugh at node operators potentially getting</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3834" data-t="3834">Yeah.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3835" data-t="3835">Node operators getting,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3837">1:03:57</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3837" data-t="3837">you know, almost like DDoSed, I guess. But,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3841" data-t="3841">you know, I also think, like, people make big deals about things that don't really matter.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3847">1:04:07</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3847" data-t="3847">Yeah. The so the next boost is from Fundamentals,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3850" data-t="3850">and he's the, you know, what I'll get into him in a second, but he boosted</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3854" data-t="3854">10,000 sats,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3856" data-t="3856">and his comment was, the giggler is born. So if you're</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3861" data-t="3861">kind of piecing together the conversation we're having right now about Rob and giggling</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3866" data-t="3866">and nodes being attacked,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3868">1:04:28</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3868" data-t="3868">so a bunch of rowdy students from Bitcoin University,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3872" data-t="3872">Matthew Kreider's institution</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3874" data-t="3874">got really upset</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3876" data-t="3876">at Rob for laughing at the plight of com coast node, Comcast</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3880" data-t="3880">nodes run by plebs. So they were trying to cancel him. And there's an ad</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3884" data-t="3884">in the, in the episode at the very beginning that, people are referencing here in these boosts. But,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3890">1:04:50</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3890" data-t="3890">we've covered that already. I wanted to cover real quickly on fundamentals.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3895" data-t="3895">He's the author of Bitcoin is for Institutions, and he was in Nashville. We were all in Nashville last summer</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3901" data-t="3901">at the, rabbit hole recap,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3903" data-t="3903">like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3904" data-t="3904">Bitcoin conference event the the at the bar. Yeah. Do you remember that? Do you remember like the rose? Do you remember that comedian that was there? Do you remember who that was? David Lucas. David Lucas and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3916" data-t="3916">It's way more aggressive than I expected. Anyway, continue.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3920">1:05:20</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3920" data-t="3920">Alright. Excuse me. Fundamentals loves podcasts and you just mentioned David being aggressive, but Fundamentals kinda</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3926" data-t="3926">has Odell Derangement Syndrome since that night because he thought that you were very grumpy</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3933" data-t="3933">and that you were not handling</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3935" data-t="3935">the, the roast very well.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3937" data-t="3937">I'm curious to hear your thoughts</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3940" data-t="3940">firsthand about what you were thinking about on stage because</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3946">1:05:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3946" data-t="3946">were you, you know, was were you like, I'm a podcaster. You can't be talking about me this way.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3952">1:05:52</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3952" data-t="3952">No. I I I think,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3955" data-t="3955">you know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3958" data-t="3958">the one of the coolest parts of of the shows is, you know, interacting with people all around the world. Like, I think the freaks are fucking awesome. Like, we have a really cool ride or die,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3971" data-t="3971">community of listeners.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3972" data-t="3972">And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3973" data-t="3973">like, that's the single most positive part of of the shows.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3979">1:06:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3979" data-t="3979">And it's what keeps me going.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3981" data-t="3981">And the in person shows are are extra special because, I mean, in this case, it was our largest in person show that we'd ever done independently, so, like, not at a conference.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3990" data-t="3990">I think it was, like, 600 people. It's, like, packed out room at this at this, music venue in in Nashville.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3997" data-t="3997">And we told people</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3998" data-t="3998">that it was family friendly and that they can bring their family. And he just gets up on stage, and the first thing he says is there's a bunch of kids in, like, the front row. And he's like, you all should have been aborted.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4008" data-t="4008">And I was just like, I've it just sent me off in the wrong direction. So I don't think I was,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4015">1:06:55</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4015" data-t="4015">I I think grumpy is probably the wrong word for it. I think it was more like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4021" data-t="4021">and anger is not the right word either, but it was like I was like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4025" data-t="4025">I was pretty pissed off at him.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4028" data-t="4028">No. That was fucked up. More sense, actually.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4031">1:07:11</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4031" data-t="4031">Yeah.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4032">1:07:12</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4032" data-t="4032">David, that's that's David Lucas's shtick. I know. I had no idea who he was, though. Like, the pub key guys handled that part.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4040" data-t="4040">I mean, mostly the I mean, I think the pub key guys did a pretty good job with that event planning, and the best part was I didn't have to do any of the planning. So,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4050" data-t="4050">on that note,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4053" data-t="4053">like, they do they do deserve credit for that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4056" data-t="4056">because I hate planning events.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4059" data-t="4059">Like, that shit is a slog.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4061">1:07:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4061" data-t="4061">It's kinda like a cool ass of you. With me. Bitcoin Park, and we have an event going on right now.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4070">1:07:50</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4070" data-t="4070">It was a great show. I had a good time. It was a little fun. Right?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4076" data-t="4076">I hope you guys do more of those.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4078" data-t="4078">I think the live events are really,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4081" data-t="4081">really awesome. Yeah. It's a lot of fun.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4084" data-t="4084">So,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4086" data-t="4086">yeah, it's a lot a lot of people, they they hug it out when they're in person. You know? They argue on Twitter. They issue each other purity test.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4094">1:08:14</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4094" data-t="4094">When they're drinking beer together, they hug it out Yeah. Feel better.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4098">1:08:18</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Matt Odell</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4098" data-t="4098">Yeah. No. I think social media really divides people in general.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4103" data-t="4103">And that's another unsolved problem. Like, I don't know how we mitigate that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4108" data-t="4108">make it a healthier experience for people.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4111">1:08:31</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4111" data-t="4111">I mean, this this is what we try to we try to constantly do with. We just try to wish him a good day. Hope he has a good day. That's really that's really big of you guys.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4120" data-t="4120">I'll I wanna give him a hug. I hope he shows up at the RHR event. I'll I'll give him a big hug. We'll smoke a cigarette together. I mean, he might have.</span></span></p> +