0:01Richard Greaser Hey, folks. This is Buster Cherry. I just wanted to let you know about a new Bitcoin podcast that is launching. Are you tired of listening to podcasts done by suits? Do you wanna hear content that affirms you doing nothing and makes you feel good about it? Do you wanna be told that you can change the world by buying $100 hardware wallets using bitcoin only k y c exchanges running knots on a start nine server, as well as buying whatever the recent gadget is? Do you wanna hear macro gibberish that doesn't even make sense but confirms you are right? Well, Plebs Slop is the podcast for you by Plebs for Plebs. This podcast will complain about people doing things while making you feel good while you sit on your couch smoking weed and shit posting about David Bailey on Twitter. The co hosts Citizen Pleb and Toxic Plebnaute

0:49Richard Greaser will entertain you. This podcast can only be found on Fiat podcasting one point zero platforms because the hosts don't believe you should ever spend your bitcoin. Find the hosts on Twitter, not Noster because the UX is too hard. Now sit back, light a cigarette, and enjoy the show.

1:19Rod Palmer The climate is abysmal. Plebs are grumpy. They're attacking podcasters, devs, and Suecoiners trying to cancel them for laughing at the plight of other plebs. Paper Bitcoin summer fizzled out before the first autumn leaves fell to the ground.

1:36Rod Palmer Nostra has become a ghost protocol yet in the midst of all the chaos, Bitcoin is still trading well over 100,000 tethers. Many are asking if all hope is lost, but all hope is not lost, not for pioneers. While the plebs are gnashing their teeth, the pioneers are blazing trails and building the foundation for the future. Hard times create strong men and folks, we are in hard times.

2:04Rod Palmer Once seen as the grumpiest Bitcoin podcaster, our guest today says he is feeling gleeful and bullish. Known for his optimistic price predictions, prolific Bitcoin podcasting, noster only ish ethos, and being a true trailblazing pioneer of the value for value frontier. Today, we are joined by Matt O'Dell. Matt O'Dell is a man who has read the mandibles, has survived multiple bear markets, never succumb to the noise of the bull markets, except for that one time.

2:35Rod Palmer And is true a true top g. Although a skeptic of listening to forty hours of Bitcoin podcast per week, he lives it. Mr. O'Dell admits to all this turmoil in the four turning, you've chosen to no longer be grumpy. What can the plebs learn from your example?

2:58Kailey Welch It's,

3:01Matt Odell it's, you gotta just in in enjoy the journey. Have fun. That was a great intro. I wasn't expecting a question. Thank you for having me.

3:17Rod Palmer It's It's good to be here. So we're we're taking over your studio. We're in Nashville. It's not it's not a bugle stream without me messing something up. So I I think I mistitled the stream. Are we live on Primal? We should be, but I think I'm pointing it to the wrong account. So Which account? Liberty Under Attack, I think.

3:37Matt Odell What account is that? It's a good account.

3:42Rod Palmer It's a good

3:46Rod Palmer account. Under attack. Yeah. Dick Kreese does, DJ. He's like a doomsday DJ radio on Mondays for Liberty Under Attack. But while he's fixing that, I have a question for you, Matt. You I think you could be described you're a venture capitalist, a podcaster, an ostrich,

4:06Rod Palmer a father, and a freak. How would you rank those five, you know, descriptions of yourself? How would you rank those in order of importance to you?

4:22Matt Odell Father, husband, Bitcoiner. Kath, you say don't take What?

4:29Rod Palmer You don't take pride or at least as much pride as we do in being a Bitcoin podcaster.

4:39Matt Odell You know the the best. The podcasts were, like, kind of an accident, and then so I just kept doing them. I don't I don't know. The podcasts are are kind of, to me, are are are, like, more of a means into an end. I don't, like, think of myself as a podcaster,

5:02Matt Odell but I definitely am one, so maybe that's not relevant.

5:08Rod Palmer Do you think you should have more pride? Should you be more proud to be a Bitcoin podcaster?

5:16Matt Odell I mean, I think I'd I I think we definitely, you know, take pride in our work in general. I mean, when I say we, me and Marty on RevPARTCAP, I mean, I think it's, to the point where it probably gets a little bit gratuitous how many times I say we've done it every week for seven years. But that's that specifically is pretty fucking crazy. It's borderline insane.

5:43Matt Odell We haven't taken a break. I had kids. Marty's dad died. Like, all the COVID shit. Evacuated New York. Gave Marty two masks and said, good luck. That was when we thought everyone's gonna die. March 2020. Still had RHR that week, though.

6:03Matt Odell I got married.

6:08Rod Palmer It's been a turned your wedding into a podcast. I think that would have been really great. Is that it was actually really funny. I, I did wanna dox my

6:17Matt Odell wedding day. So but Marty was at my wedding, but we did it remote. Why if I we we did it, like, remote in person so that the freaks wouldn't know. The

6:32Rod Palmer the reason we asked the question is because podcasters are becoming incredibly influential, and being a Bitcoin podcaster comes with a lot of responsibility. And I think or do you agree that at at the very least, Bitcoin podcasters should take themselves as seriously as Dennis Porter?

6:52Matt Odell Well, that's a pretty low bar. I mean, jokes aside, like, I think, I think it's pretty lame that people just, like, change their recommendations for, like, 10 k. There

7:10Matt Odell there's so many cheap cheap people in the in the Bitcoin space. Like, your your your self custody recommendations shouldn't, like, change based on who your sponsor is. It's a pretty it's a pretty sacred responsibility to, like, recommend how someone saves their life savings for their family. And, it shouldn't change based on who pays you the most. And if it is going to, like, they should at least pay you more. It's

7:40Matt Odell really fucking cheap.

7:43Rod Palmer Yeah. We take that responsibility very seriously. That's why we only refer people to Office Depot for their paper wallet. I feel like this is safe. It is like, how can the Mossad infiltrate the paper

7:59Matt Odell supply? No. No. The freaks do not I mean, they're obviously joking, but definitely do not use, like, a shared printer to print a fucking paper wallet. That's a horrible idea. No. Obviously not. What you do is you take a Sharpie, and you draw the QR code by hand. In the Office Depot? Cypherpunks use paper.

8:22Rod Palmer I think Jay Weatherman would advise that you go to the forest and you cut down five separate trees, and you make your own paper out of the pulp, and you make and then you write your seed you know, you make your paper wall out of those five and then you put them in a in an envelope, and you spread them out across the country.

8:45Matt Odell I'm I'm I'm kind of annoyed that I can't see the live chat. Do we are we not live on Primal?

8:51Rod Palmer Checked the AppStream. We should we should be.

8:54Matt Odell Oh, I can check the AppStream.

8:57Rod Palmer Should we I mean, I could I could stop the stream and restart it. No. Don't do that.

9:03Rod Palmer We have Lindy. I'm checking Brymo right now. I'm doing the I'm honoring the situation from, from a remote location.

9:12Rod Palmer We might only be live on Twitter. This might actually be a problem.

9:16Rod Palmer Yeah. I don't see it on well, I don't know how to necessarily confirm on primal.

9:22Matt Odell I don't see it on ZabStream. Where is it on Twitter? Is it on the Bugle account? Yeah. It's on the Bugle account.

9:34Rod Palmer And I mislabeled the, the stream. I'm acting like an amateur too. We're live with Adele, and then another,

9:43Matt Odell then there's an exclamation point just on the second line. Pretty funny.

9:54Rod Palmer You know, podcasts are serious business. It's hard to be hard. It's a lot harder to, like, stream live on, like, five different platforms at once. It's a lot harder than it looks.

10:07Matt Odell Yeah. Both of my shows are live shows. That definitely makes it much more difficult, I think.

10:12Rod Palmer Yeah. You're you're a true pioneer.

10:15Matt Odell Thanks.

10:17Rod Palmer You have been one of the biggest, longest advocates of the value for value ecosystem. Oh, yeah. We got the Citadel dispatch flag behind us.

10:30Rod Palmer How do you how do you wanna be like, when when kids are learning about history and Bitcoin history in their Citadel schools fifty years from now, how do you think they're gonna write about you in the history books?

10:45Matt Odell I know. Hopefully, they don't at all. That would be the ideal situation.

10:50Rod Palmer Well That's not an option. I don't

10:52Rod Palmer yeah. I think it's impossible because you've been you've been out in front of a lot of things and, you know, one of right now, Bitcoin Twitter is absolutely nothing but drama. But sometimes you know when there's some pretty spicy

11:11Rod Palmer industry drama when a screenshot, an ode to l screenshot from Noster starts going viral on x. And last spring, one of the one of these situations are where you it's where you called out Michael Saylor

11:28Rod Palmer for his, you know, he wanted to starve the corded's charitable donations, and you whipped all the clubs into quite a frenzy over that. But barely, you know, just over a year later, the tides have shifted dramatically.

11:44Rod Palmer The plebs are very much on sailor's side. Sailors trashing the idea of donating to well intentioned core devs who just want to make Bitcoin better. How do you feel how do you feel about that old situation? Do you feel betrayed

12:03Rod Palmer by the plebs, or would you encourage them to rethink their position in this node client that have you taken a position in this node client battle?

12:18Matt Odell Well, I've there's a lot of pieces there. First of all, so, like, last year, it came to my attention, that, Michael privately

12:33Matt Odell was telling people not to support, the different organizations that are supporting open source developers in the Bitcoin space. And, like, I first just wanted to, like, talk to him about it privately, and I I

12:54Matt Odell believe it or not, like, I couldn't get I couldn't get in touch with him. I tried for a couple months. So, like, four months went by, five months went by. And then at that point, I really just got frustrated that it was just happening behind closed doors. Like, I just kinda wanted an open discussion about it. So I sent out two Nostra posts. And at that point, I was posting in all caps. So it probably came out much more aggressive,

13:24Matt Odell than I intended, which is I'll take responsibility for that because I posted it in all caps. But I was posting everything in all caps. I I and you can look back at the Nostra Post. Like, I intentionally did not put my judgment there about whether or not I thought

13:45Matt Odell I mean, you can, like, kind of I've I've donated so much from my time to open sites. Like, you can kind of get my opinion from that just from, like, the proof of work there. But I intentionally was just, like, I just want people to talk about it and know about it. And a lot of the immediate reaction was specifically that I was lying about it. And as someone who has

14:09Matt Odell been truthful and honest and very transparent in the space for a long time, Like, the accusations of being a liar is like, that fucking sucks. Like, that really frustrated me. So at this point now, when it's mostly people saying, like, Sailor was right and Odell was wrong, at least, like, they're admitting that I wasn't a liar. So I got that going for me. So that's a nice change of pace, because Sailor can't both be right and maybe a liar. Like, logically, that's the case. I, you know, I think, look, people are they're everyone should have their own opinion. I think,

14:48Matt Odell you know, I there's no such thing as an invalid opinion. It's not like an objective thing. It's something that people subjectively have to decide on on what they think the best path forward is on on on open source development in general, not just in Bitcoin. But I would say that

15:11Matt Odell the idea that there's a small group of developers that are working on the Bitcoin protocol and Bitcoin core

15:24Matt Odell is a very real concern and is part of the reason that OpenSats exists in the first place because I think the answer there is actually I I personally think the answer there is more developers and more diverse funding and bringing more developers into the space that think differently and are, you know, running their own well maintained, well reviewed implementations. Like, I think more choice is better in general.

15:49Matt Odell I think if you try and do, like, a defund the police movement on open source developers, what you actually introduce is you introduce a situation where they become more desperate, and they'll take

16:08Matt Odell questionable funding. Right? Like, the the concern that, you know, maybe they're getting influenced by certain for profit companies and stuff like that. Like, to me, that concern becomes if you if you remove independent organizations like Open Sats that separates the donors from the actual grants, then the result you get is the situation we had. You you you get you get a situation where, like, a random for profit company is, like, paying core devs, like, $60,000

16:37Matt Odell directly and says, like, merge the things that I wanna see. So to me, I think that we were probably in a way worse position four years ago, five years ago in terms of how these open source contributors were getting funding because they were getting funding, like, directly from exchanges and stuff. And since then, we've seen HRF do their dev funding. We've seen OpenSaaS do the dev funding.

17:06Matt Odell So they have more diverse independent options available to them, and I think that's a a pretty big win. But, yeah, I'm just glad that, I'm glad that people are talking about it publicly and that it's not happening behind closed doors.

17:22Rod Palmer Okay. I kinda have two questions on that subject. So one's a little bit unfair, but, or maybe it's not. You you since have talked to Saylor. Right? Yeah. We're actually on good terms. Yeah. So what do you think his standpoint is? And he wasn't he, like, he wasn't offended that I posted those master posts. Does he is he just a big believer that paper Bitcoin is the best way to scale Bitcoin?

17:49Matt Odell Look. I mean, obviously, he is, a massive holder of Bitcoin both personally and with his company. Right? So, like, he does have very strong incentive to see Bitcoin succeed. I mean, that's one of the cool parts about Bitcoin, right, is that anyone who owns Bitcoin is aligned and wanting to see Bitcoin succeed. I think it was actually kinda interesting. I did an interview with him at the park, like, right over there, a couple months after all of that. And it was like

18:21Matt Odell a breaking bread kinda thing. And I asked him specifically about well, first of all, he only had, like, forty minutes and, which means I get, like, four questions, like, three questions because he's he he always has very long answers.

18:41Matt Odell But I asked him about Bitcoin used as money, and I was actually kinda surprised. He said that, the main thing that he thinks is holding back is actually, like, US tax policy, which is interesting because I think a lot of people, like, assume that he just doesn't think

19:02Matt Odell people should or will spend Bitcoin. But I if if it's just a tax policy argument, then I think, like, people are more aligned there than than people give them credit for. Because, I mean, they the the tax policy specifically

19:24Matt Odell cap gains is like it's just it it adds such a mental burden. It adds such mental friction that it does hold back. I think it holds back adoption a lot of ways. But I think also at the same time, like, it's just an order of operations thing. Like, I think it's gonna take time for people to first end up with all their savings in Bitcoin. And then once all your savings is in Bitcoin, it's actually easier to spend Bitcoin than spend dollars. Because if you're spending dollars, it means you have to actually sell the Bitcoin first to spend in dollars.

19:56Matt Odell So first, we we first, Bitcoin is is used primarily as savings, then, people start spending it later. And I think good money, I it's weird because with Bitcoin, it's always been, like, the spend camp and then, like, the save camp because, like, people on social media like to be in,

20:16Matt Odell like, tribes. But you really for good money, you need both. Like, because if if you can't spend your savings without permission, then you have no value there. Like, it's it's basically not your money. So you and you need to be able to do both, and they both work hand in hand together.

20:35Rod Palmer So you you think Sailor's being empathetic to people. He understands they they can't afford their taxes and that Bitcoin's a savings vehicle to be able to afford your taxes. And then if you spend your Bitcoin,

20:51Rod Palmer then you have to pay a Jewish accountant to help you figure out how to be able to afford your taxes, and it's just expense after expense.

20:59Matt Odell That's his that's his No. No. I don't think I don't think the the problem with tax policy is not affording it because you're only paying taxes on profit. Right? Like, the way cap gains works is if you're pay you're paying a percentage, if it's if in America, it's long term cap gains, I think, on the federal level is, like, 20%. But it's a percentage of of of your purchasing power increase. So you're literally only paying cap gains if Bitcoin increases in purchasing power, which it which it does. So so in that real respect, like, obviously, you can afford it. The problem is just the mental burden of of, like, actually,

21:37Matt Odell like, keeping track of it and reporting it and whatnot. I think that's

21:41Rod Palmer the that's the You can afford it as long as you don't spend it before next April. And according to, like, you know, this is just speculation. You're not the one tweeting from the ten thirty one Twitter account. But according to that account,

21:56Matt Odell Bitcoin is going much higher. It's a very high signal account. I don't know if you've noticed. There's a lot of bullshit that's going on Twitter right now, but, if you want the signal signal through the noise, the ten thirty one Twitter account is really is really there for the pubs.

22:13Rod Palmer What about so Noster, we can get into this a little bit too, because it seems like Noster is kinda going through a little bit of a bear mark and all the drama is on x. So everybody wants to go to where the drama is, you got plebs who are fleeing Oster going to x. And then you've got Morty. What's it like going through this for turning all this drama?

22:36Rod Palmer Is Martin didn't isn't so much on Oster, but I feel like he's probably spending forty hours per week reading Truth Social. Like, how do you pull Marty back from Truth Social and put her on a pod a good podcast and do do good work, when everybody is just glued to the drama on the timeline, including ostriches who are going to acts. Like, how do you get them back? How do you get the drama? We thought Vladimir might come to Noster

23:02Rod Palmer when, he was crashing out over pay for Bitcoin summer. He didn't last he he he thought it was an echo chamber. You got American HODL. He's doing he's posting vlogs vlogs. How do you how do you draw the the plebs bat to Noster?

23:18Matt Odell First of all, you guys I think you guys are the main reason that you, like, you, like, bullied off of x, and then you brought paper Bitcoin somewhere over to Nasr and then bullied him back to x. So that that was all in you guys. That is correct. With that. I disagree. No. Platador

23:38Rod Palmer went to Noster, and he realized that it was really difficult to delete his post, so then he left. Yeah. I think,

23:46Matt Odell that's something that's really difficult for influencers on Nasr is that is the the no deletes. So you have to actually stand behind what you say. And then the other thing is no blocks. Like, you can mute people, but you can't restrict your replies. And I think, you know, a lot of influencers like the safe space of being able to restrict who can reply to them, and stop to reply guys.

24:09Matt Odell So, but to me, that's a feature, not a bug. And I think over time, as Nostra adoption increases, the fact that people can't restrict replies, will just mean that we'll have more honest discourse will happen. I, you know, I think, Nostra is still incredibly early. I think adoption is going pretty well. I think we're just starting to get to the point where, like, the apps are stable enough. Right? Specifically,

24:36Matt Odell Primal is getting to a really stable point, and I've been heavily involved in building that out. So I'm pretty happy. I'm I'm pretty happy with where we currently stand in terms of of Napster adoption. I it is pretty disappointing that we don't have more drama. I think it's funny that a lot of people say, there's too much Bitcoiners on Nasr. It's like to me, it's like we don't have enough. Like, if you're gonna fight if Bitcoiners are gonna fight, it'd be great if they they fought on Nasr instead of x. Mhmm. But I think it's just gonna be a grind thing. Like, I think it's a time thing. I don't think Noster is inevitable, but I think it is something that would be a massive value add to society if if it does succeed.

25:19Matt Odell And so there's a bunch of us that are gonna try and try and bootstrap it and try and make it happen. I think the live streaming with Zap specifically is a nice little edge that we have. And then you mentioned American Huddl. Like, I don't think he gets enough credit for being active and and,

25:41Rod Palmer posting good shit over there. And he's, like, he makes some really he makes some really great videos. The Bitcoin Treasury video, the eighties theme I I thought that was fantastic. And that was really that video was a a big, influence and, like, a inspiration for me or for not me, but

26:02Rod Palmer me as well as the others who really were talking about Labor Bitcoin summer and this big, this big event that it was. And I wanna clarify, we weren't a wholly in Twitter or a Planeter. What we were doing was we were we were Planator was trying to avoid us, and we wanted him to know that he was invited to Paper Bitcoin Summer and there was nowhere that he could hide where we wouldn't find him and let him know that we wanted him to join us. And I think you make a good point about Noster, a lot of people don't like the ability to restrict the two way communication, the people being able to like,

26:39Rod Palmer a lot of people do want to avoid shinobi coming into their replies to call them retarded. And I my advice is if you want people to stop calling you retarded, you have to stop being retarded. And I think that Nostra is a place where you learn that more quickly. You get that feedback. You can't hide from the truth. Nostr, you can't hide from the truth. And I think that

27:03Rod Palmer the problem, and we get back to it, is you can't delete your tweets. Well, cancel culture just kind of flipped sides a week ago. And now there's a lot of it used to be safe to to post a, like, saying that Trump's meme coin was a shit coin. And now you could be sued for it, and now people are are trying to delete those tweets. And it's just a different you it's a different mindset.

27:29Rod Palmer Would you consider Plutterer an influencer?

27:32Matt Odell Oh, 100%. Would you not?

27:38Rod Palmer I don't know what that client he thinks he's a journalist, but

27:42Rod Palmer Well, in Massey Madness, he was, he was in the influencer bracket. So

27:49Matt Odell I I Yes. You know, I think, he plays an important role, in the ecosystem, and there is a lot of group think. And, there's, you know, he's I mean, he he definitely provides a unique perspective, right, that that most people aren't,

28:11Matt Odell highlighting in a lot of ways. I will say that, at one point, he, like, he posted about how ten thirty one was evil for dumping, fold stock on retail,

28:32Matt Odell and posted, like, a public document because publicly traded companies have to release, like, you know, all sorts of documentation. And the public document he posted was, about a credit deal that we set up for Fold

28:49Matt Odell where they for debt so that they could buy Bitcoin and put it on the balance sheet, and we hadn't sold any Fold stock. I I I believe we still haven't. And so the ten thirty one intern let him know, you know, what the facts of the situation were there, and he just, like, completely ignored it. And then it wasn't like, oh, I'm wrong. I think there's a there's a tendency of people to not admit when they were wrong,

29:17Matt Odell or don't know something. And I I think it's fine to be wrong, I think, but you should own it. And I've been wrong plenty of times, but it's important to own it.

29:31Rod Palmer It's a good point. It's a good point. Yeah. Let's let's talk about I wanted to circle back to OpenSats. Yeah. So what what type of purity test do you issue when you're,

29:47Rod Palmer evaluating developers that you're funding?

29:50Matt Odell So, I mean, that's the other thing that's you know? And and maybe we try and be as transparent as possible. I think we're probably one of the most transparent charities in the world, period. And so all of our grants are public. The the who we provide grants to. We're provide we've provided over 200 grants, throughout our existence.

30:14Matt Odell We don't say the amounts because it's a balancing act. Like, we don't wanna, you know, basically, dox people's, you know, how much Bitcoin they might have or might be getting. So it's been a balancing act. And I will say, like, what we've, like, probably provided nearly 250 grants.

30:36Matt Odell A lot of them are year long grants, and I don't think a single grant recipient has they've they're will they're obviously completely, allowed to tell people how much they make, and none of them have chosen to do that. So, like, it's very it's very obvious to me that grant recipients do not want amounts to be known. But, we and so, like, when people say, like, oh, like, open session be funding commie devs or this or that. It's like, okay. Well, which ones are the commies, and which ones are the ones we're funding? And no one ever gives me an answer on that. Like, they never tell me that. I will say that, the overwhelming majority of stuff we fund is actually, like, not protocol stuff.

31:19Matt Odell We fund a few core developers. I think we fund one maintainer.

31:27Rod Palmer Which ones? Just out of curiosity.

31:29Matt Odell Fanquake. I think we fund him. I think we partially fund him, and another organization

31:41Rod Palmer I was hoping you say Gloria.

31:43Matt Odell No. We don't fund Gloria. But I like, the the whole the whole design of OpenSats was I is was was based on me seeing us seeing, you know, inefficient, corrupt

31:59Matt Odell charity organizations in the past. So we're a 100% passed through by design. The board doesn't get paid anything. And, and we have a we have a nine person board that's eight right now because, Lisa stepped away, earlier this year, so we need to replace her. But we have a nine person board that doesn't get paid, and then every grant

32:23Matt Odell basically comes in. We get an app, and then it comes into this private GitHub repo. And then the board members review it underneath, and and then we all vote underneath as well. And so, like, if if a grant gets a simple majority gets five votes, then it gets approved. So no single board member can force through

32:47Matt Odell grant applications. No single board member can block those things. And as a result, I think it's a more merit talk merit based process, than a lot of other organizations. And what's cool there, it means, like, those votes aren't public because I also don't think votes should be public because if votes are public, then you could pressure board members and

33:13Matt Odell do, like, social media mobs and stuff to get them to vote one way or the other. So that's why those votes aren't public. But we what it means is we have a full audit trail over every review process and every vote. So if we ever needed to, release, like, an audit trail of why someone got a grant and how much they were getting and all that stuff, like, we have all of those records, which I think is pretty cool. And then we have a review process. So so, usually, like, people

33:43Matt Odell have one year grants. We have long term support grants that are, two years. But then they're they're they're fixed in fiat on a yearly basis, and then they're paid out monthly in Bitcoin.

33:59Matt Odell So, like, the Bitcoin exchange rate's fluctuating, but we send out about a million dollars of the Bitcoin every month to about 200 grant recipients in 40 plus countries. And it's pretty fucking cool to see it all kinda come together. I mean, the BitX project, we were the original funders of the BitX project. I think that has been a massive success. I think we've seen a lot of success with Cashew. We're one of the largest funders at BTCPay Server. And I think, you know, if you wanna supercharge

34:31Matt Odell I think open source development is a key piece of, you know, freedom in the digital age because it's not controlled by any individual. It's not controlled by a company. And if you wanna supercharge that, it makes sense to me that you support developers so that they can work full time on this stuff instead of, you know, making it a hobby project on the side. Like, I would would these projects, you know, still happen? Probably. Would it would they take longer? Yeah. Like, is life short? Like, would I would I rather have Freedom Tools operating in two years than five years or ten years? Yeah. A 100%. Like, that's better for myself. That's better for everyone. That's better for our children. So that's why OpenSets exist, to to supercharge it, but also provide, you know, this funding in a relatively merit based,

35:18Matt Odell independent, transparent way as much as possible.

35:22Rod Palmer Do you think are are core devs who are funded by Open Sats, are they allowed to have sex? Or is it, like, a no ask, dumb ask, don't tell situation? Do you have a policy at all in their contracts?

35:35Matt Odell No. We their sex life is completely, independent from our review process. I mean, look, the cool part the cool part about open source stuff is you actually have, like, a pretty a relatively objective, like, proof of work track record for a lot of these developers.

35:56Matt Odell So you can see, like, if they're actually doing things, or if they're not. And, they usually provide, like, a a road map of what they tend to work on.

36:11Matt Odell And then when they give us reports, when they give us the quarterly reports, they say, you know, what they got done and where they currently stand. And, but we're relatively loose about it. Like, if, like, we we see situations where, like, you know, someone maybe they're doing out they're outside of protocol work. Right? Like, they're, like, making a Bitcoin wallet or something. Right? Like, we have, like, Cove Wallet, which we just which we've been funding, which is a a self custody mobile based wallet. But, like, let's say, for instance, you know, like he says in his road map, he's gonna release an iOS wallet, and then he, like, decides to pivot, and he's like, no. The App Store is, like, too difficult. Like, I'm just gonna release on Android or web or something like that. And he says it on a report. Like, that's completely fine. Like, we're not gonna be like, yo. You said you were gonna have a iOS wallet, and now you don't have an iOS wallet.

37:03Matt Odell So we're, like, relatively loose about it, but, like, the key is, like like, don't just, like, take the money and do nothing. You know? Just, like, fuck off and go on vacation or something. And we've actually only had maybe there's, like, nine grants that we've paused, in the review process, and

37:24Matt Odell the overwhelming majority of them actually send back the Bitcoin, which is kinda crazy. Because, like, obviously, it's Bitcoin. We can't call it back. But they, like, feel bad when they send it back. They're like, oh, like, I had a family issue or something. I'm just gonna send it back.

37:38Rod Palmer They're not prime trust.

37:41Matt Odell Yeah. They're not prime trust. No.

37:43Rod Palmer Maybe that's the compromise though to all this drama on Twitter is to pay debts, not to do anything. Maybe that's what we have to do. It's like pay all these debts to not tinker with Bitcoin. Maybe that's what some people want.

38:01Matt Odell I mean, I if if, if if the goal is to get developers that you don't want to work on Bitcoin, to stop working on Bitcoin, then, yeah, that actually probably would be pretty effective. It'd be to just, like, pay the job, like, shit.

38:19Rod Palmer Money. Sailor doesn't want anybody to tinker with Bitcoin. He can just pay them to stay away. Everybody who knows how to code, just pay them to not tinker with Bitcoin. And the solution is it's like the people who don't like the spam, it's like, then just buy Blot Space and price out the spammers. Buy off the developers to not code. I think that is maybe that's what we need to tell Saylor to do.

38:43Matt Odell Yeah. I mean, if look. I, jokes aside, like, I I think, there's a lot of maintenance and, like, efficiency improvements that can be done at Bitcoin without protocol changes. I think,

38:60Matt Odell actually, like, the nuts people mostly agree with this because, like, Luke is constantly shipping updates and making his own tweaks. But if you believe that there isn't and you believe that we don't need any, you know, more maintenance work or or, like, efficiency gains and stuff like that, then, like, why are people arguing about running knots? Like, just run v 28 forever, v 29 forever,

39:28Matt Odell not upgrade. You don't need the developers. Like, you can just do that. But I think everyone is implicitly saying, like, no. That's not the case because that's why they, you know, that's why they want a separate, well reviewed, maintained implementation and have more choice going forward. Because if that wasn't the case, then you could just always run the old one. I will say that on the consensus stuff, like, actual soft forks and stuff, I think that ship has mostly sailed, like, except for

39:58Matt Odell a few maybe very urgent things that have like, if something urgent and absolutely necessary had to happen, we might see a a soft fork in the future, but at least in the near I I I don't think, like, these things like covenants or anything that like CTV or whatever. I don't think any of that's gonna happen.

40:22Matt Odell And I think policy changes, like how nodes relay transactions and stuff that are not consensus based, you know, should should be up to the node operator on how they want to to run that. But it's, like, not, you know, it's not changing the protocol. So I think there's a little bit of a conflation between, like, bad changes to the protocol versus, like, how a node relays transactions and what node what a node keeps in its mempool. And I actually I would just say, like, I in general, I lean more

40:55Matt Odell on the sailor side, in terms of of, first of all, like, breaking changes to Bitcoin, which would be a hard fork. But, also, like, on the soft fork side, like, I think we should be very, very conservative if if if there are any soft forks going forward on to Bitcoin. And it should only be when it's absolutely necessary.

41:21Matt Odell Like, there there is there is a concern that that, you could have a change that's a bad change. And so Bitcoin is working right now. It is the base of a global financial system, and my entire fam my family relies on it. My businesses rely on it. Like, my whole life relies on Bitcoin. Like, I really don't want to fuck it up. I don't want developers to fuck it up. And so everyone needs to be as conservative as possible.

41:51Rod Palmer Do you think that, is there so there's this growing crowd of people that say that there's too many Bitcoin podcasts. Do you think that the proponents of that believe that because there's too diverse of opinions? They want protocol changes like CTV,

42:10Rod Palmer and that having too many podcasters with different opinions cause problems for that.

42:15Matt Odell I mean, I think the problem on the Bitcoin podcast side is, like, we don't have enough podcasts. I think it's it's, there's a lot of group think out there. Like, there's not a lot of independent opinions. I think people are more or less scared to say how they actually feel or actually or haven't been able to do the work to actually have their own opinion. And, usually, they just repeat whatever their sponsors,

42:42Matt Odell tell them to think. So I would like to actually see more. I think this I think more education is good in general. I think, more tools is better in general. You know? I think, more Bitcoin companies is better in general. I think more open source Bitcoin projects is better in general.

43:01Matt Odell And we just need more and more and more, and that's just a net win for everybody. And it's so so how do you grow that pie? How do you make it more, accessible?

43:16Rod Palmer I think I've got an easy answer to that. I think OpenShots should be looking at funding open source podcasting in general.

43:26Matt Odell I, we did we were funding education for a bit, which we pulled back on. So, like, technically, that could kind of kind of fall into that, field. I will say that, the cool part about OpenSats funding developers

43:45Matt Odell is, like I said, open source developers specifically have, like, a a verifiable, track record that you can base your grant decisions on. Right? Like, you actually have

43:57Matt Odell you have commits and releases and projects that you can, like, actually, like, audit and look at and review. When you start funding things like education or we've seen, you know, some organizations fund, like, you know, so called Bitcoin circular economies like a Bitcoin beach or something like that, it becomes much more subjective on on if work is being done, how much progress is being made. So it becomes much more difficult. I mean, I think other organizations

44:26Matt Odell it does it makes sense to me that other organizations, you know, could or maybe even should fund these things. Well, I'm thinking about I, like, I I personally don't think, like, OpenSAT should do all of the things, and I I want to see more organizations bloom in general. Like, we've we've helped support multiple independent organizations that specialize in different aspects

44:53Matt Odell of of Bitcoin, and, we'd like to see a thousand flowers bloom. Like, I don't want OpenSats to be a single point of failure. The whole point of OpenSats in the first place was to distribute what we saw as centralized funding in the first place and add another option to the table. So, like, if you don't like how OpenSats does things,

45:14Matt Odell one of the most productive things you can do is actually launch another organization, I think. But then last but not least, like, on the value for value side, like, I think direct funding is the best because then you don't have a middleman in the first place. And I I I think this is another reason why, specifically, the work that's being done on primal is so important because you if you make the interface for supporting both creators and open source devs,

45:45Matt Odell much easier, much more, like, fun and almost gamified, with that nice social signal built in with Zaps, I think what you see is you see more people actually do it. I think a lot of people wanna support, their favorite podcast or or their their their favorite open source project, but it's it it can be it can be difficult and so then they get so then the friction stops them from doing it. But, like, if you for instance, like, if if if Craig Ra posts, like, a new Sparrow wallet update, like, zap that shit. You know? So, like, that is is strictly better than I'm getting funding from an OpenSats. Like, I think users should be funding

46:24Matt Odell the developers directly if they if they appreciate their work and same with podcasts

46:29Rod Palmer and other education. What do you think about what do you think about? Like, there's this company called Lightning Bounties where you can put a lightning payment bounty on a project or something on GitHub. If somebody actually goes implements it, it gets merged into the good to the project. They automatically get a payout from it. Like, what about using bounties in this way? Where it's like, instead of me just funding you to go put whatever you want on Bitcoin, like a very specific change, a very specific

46:59Rod Palmer fix, a very specific feature, and it goes on a bounty and if it ultimately makes it into a release, then you can get paid for that instead of, you know,

47:10Matt Odell the alternative. I think bounties are interesting. I think it's also hard to do bounties effectively, though. So we've kinda shied away from it for the most part. I I mean, the problem with bounties is, first of all, you have to make them very, very specific and objective, because

47:28Matt Odell if they're vague in any kind of way, there's gonna be arguments on who qualifies for the bounty and who should get paid out and if someone should get paid out or not. The second problem you have is you have people do, like, the bare minimum amount of work to get a bounty. But I will say that we've we've had some successes. Like, we did a bounty program in partnership with HRF and Strike couple years ago,

47:57Matt Odell and that was actually what birthed Cashew, which I think has been a pretty successful project, and it's been pretty cool to watch. Like, Cali basically saw the bounty go up and then, like, in three weeks, released the first Cashew wallet, and claimed the bounty. So there's definitely success stories there. But as someone who has, you know, had to debate about whether or not someone qualifies for a bounty or not, it it gets it can get really dicey,

48:25Matt Odell and it's hard to do right.

48:29Rod Palmer I think yeah. So you kinda flipped the tables on me. So it sounds like I care about open source podcasting, so I should, endeavor on this. Like, I'd like to see the bid acts of microphones. That's pretty cool. The, the Shure SM seven b, the one that you're using Yeah. It's like the the flagship of Bitcoin podcasters, and I think there's a centralization

48:54Rod Palmer risk. Podcasting is just like mining.

48:59Matt Odell I think it's funny that, I I don't know. Like, I the the cool part about, podcasting today, in my opinion, is that you can just, like, you know, use your laptop's mic, and you don't have to go buy fancy equipment. Like, just ship a podcast. Just, like, do it. You can iterate over time. Like, I think people overthink a lot of things. I'm a big believer in just, like, diving in head first into things

49:29Matt Odell and figuring it out as you go. And, I think, with podcasting as well, that's, is, like, very valid thing. I also, like, hate when people,

49:45Matt Odell like, they sit on a show for, like, three weeks or four weeks. They just fucking release the thing. And that's why some of my shows are live. Unedited Yeah. Immediately ship it out.

49:57Rod Palmer That was that was, like, a too fast.

49:59Rod Palmer Yeah. Taking three weeks to edit your podcast, that was, like, a third turn or yeah. It's not a fourth turning activity. That's for sure.

50:09Matt Odell I agree.

50:11Rod Palmer So one thing that I thought was really important I wanna talk to you about before we get into the fountain base, how close are we to the mandibles right now? And did Marty Ben ever read the book? He never read the book. No.

50:27Matt Odell You know, I think, what people so the mandibles to, like, the 10 people that don't know, what it is is a book about, hyperinflation in The United States. I think one piece that, people miss about it is that it's specifically based in New York. So, like, you only see the New York City perspective for the most part, without giving away too many spoilers. But, it makes sense to me that

50:54Matt Odell as we see, the institutions we rely on, even more trust get eroded from them and and and the dollar continuing to just just bleed value, as in, you know, like, inflation's just running away at this point. And it's not you know? The the numbers they give you on inflation are just absolutely bullshit. Like, it's really double digits, and you can just see it from, like, the cost of groceries and everyday things. Like, people aren't idiots.

51:27Matt Odell So I think that will happen. And then I think the question is, what is the timing? And now I I think in Mandibles, specifically, like, she thought Bitcoin was gonna fail. And in her defense, I think she wrote she wrote the book almost ten years ago,

51:44Matt Odell which it was probably more likely at that point that Bitcoin could fail or would fail. So I think in a world where we have Bitcoin and you have a, basically, a seamless path to switching to better money, it should reduce the impact on how severe everything is because people will have an option. Right? People will have an an out. But then it also depends on, like, where you are in the world

52:08Matt Odell and what is your local jurisdiction like and what is your local community like. And so there'd be places that will you know, it won't be as severe, and then there'll be other places that'll just be fucking horrible. And, like, specifically, like, the big cities on the coasts, that are, like, horribly run and have, like, huge populations. Like, it's gonna be worse there. And we're seeing that in New York right now with, like, mom Donnie, like, a just a a vowed socialist who, like, never had a job, likely winning the mayoral race there.

52:41Matt Odell These are, like, the early warning signs for this type of thing. And I think it's important as part specifically, if you have a family, like, I think it's really important to think about these things and plan for the worst and hope for the best. You know? Like, maybe maybe it doesn't it's not as bad as it looks like. But I will say that, you know, when you see smaller economies like Argentina and stuff go through hyperinflation, it's inflation, it's absolutely brutal. Now imagine that with a global reserve currency, and,

53:12Matt Odell it it should be significantly worse because, you know, the whole world relies on the dollar. I cannot when argent when Argentina peso is failing, like, people flood to the dollar. When the dollar is failing, where do you flood to? Well, like, you have gold and you have Bitcoin. So it's good that we have that that that alternative that we have a good money.

53:36Matt Odell Because if you don't have that, then it'd be significantly worse.

53:43Rod Palmer You know, thinking about that, thinking about, like, people fleeing to the dollar and and places in the global South where it's kind of their lifeline. It makes me think of my most valuable Bitcoiner, who is Paulo from Tether. And in these kind of situations, like, we don't wanna see Tethers hyperinflate,

54:03Rod Palmer but what who is your most valuable Bitcoiner at, you know, just for twenty twenty twenty five? And is it is it a podcaster?

54:18Matt Odell I mean, I think we're very lucky to have Cali working on open source Bitcoin stuff. I think Cassey is fucking awesome. I think it's been impressive to to watch it, you know, be an open become an open protocol that is much bigger than just him, with many different wallets. I think his work on BitChat, has been really cool too. I think BitChat's pretty exciting.

54:42Rod Palmer The other Zoomers in into, in Nepal, were going full tally mode using Bitchat to overthrow a very corrupt state. So it any Pretty cool. Progress and action right there.

54:56Matt Odell So I think that's pretty pretty fucking cool. I think Craig Rauch is, like, is the constant fucking legend. Like, I fucking rely on Sparrow. My businesses rely on Sparrow. Open SaaS relies on Sparrow. My family relies on Sparrow. Like, that fucking piece of software is unparalleled. So we're very lucky to have that. But, yeah, I mean, I think this new.

55:23Matt Odell What?

55:24Rod Palmer I was just gonna say, I think using Sparrow, like, I wanna start I wanna launch the term raw dogging, cold storage, raw dogging, self storage, but as a tribute to Craig.

55:38Matt Odell Why would it be a tribute to Craig?

55:41Rod Palmer Because his last name is Raw. Oh,

55:46Matt Odell thank you for explaining that to me. You're welcome.

55:52Rod Palmer It's a great last name.

55:55Matt Odell It is a good last name.

55:60Rod Palmer Well, yeah. So one of one of the things we do on all our interviews is, we read the fountain pages from the previous episode, the previous interview. Nice. Rob Hamilton told you to listen to our last one. I it sounded like you didn't. We had Portland Auto on. I didn't listen to it. No. What's your aversion to listening to forty hours of Bitcoin podcast?

56:22Matt Odell I think forty hours is a little bit aggressive. I think, like, if you listen to, like, a humble, like, four hours a week, it's pretty good.

56:29Rod Palmer Which ones?

56:32Matt Odell I mean, that's a good question. I've been listening to, a Malar show a decent amount now. His, like, weekly macro show. You you're not concerned with his broccoli haircut? No. No. I think that's a feature, not a bug. Why? I don't know. I'm just being provocative. I don't really think about his haircut at all. I,

56:56Matt Odell I think it's pretty crazy how much success he's found with that show so quickly, and it does cover you know, it's it's it's I I like it because it's, like, kind of, like, weekly topical news, and specifically macro stuff, which I've never been stronger on. I've been it has never been my strong suit. I, you know, occasionally listen to Marty's shows.

57:20Matt Odell You know, I'll occasionally listen to Danny's shows.

57:23Rod Palmer It's hard not to listen to Marty's shows when you see the open thumbnail open mouth thumbnail on YouTube. I fucking hate the and Marty's not the only one guilty of that, but,

57:35Matt Odell the YouTube algorithm has just really it's amazing what people will do for, like, a couple more listeners. I'm hoping that I'm hoping that we can, you know, provide a more incentive aligned path with primal,

57:52Matt Odell on the video and the podcasting side and, because I fucking I, like, I hate those I hate the thumbnails. I hate the clickbait.

58:04Rod Palmer You got me with the last episode of, RHR. I saw the open mouth thumbnails and clicked on it right away.

58:12Matt Odell Yeah. Well, to be clear, like, I'm against our YouTube, on our HR. I don't handle that. So how far how far do you think Marty's gonna take it? We don't do those thumbnails on the podcast feed or on roster. The RHR

58:31Matt Odell uses Marty's TFTC YouTube account. It always has. It doesn't have its own YouTube account. And then, like, if you look at the exact opposite, like, still dispatch which I manage, like, there's no click date. There's no thumbnails, and, like, we're basically shadow banned on YouTube. No ads.

58:52Matt Odell Like, YouTube prioritizes on the algo, anything that shows YouTube ads. So it's like you're kinda damned if you do damned if you don't. It's a little it's it's, it's a fucked up situation.

59:09Matt Odell So I don't really blame I like, particularly people that are like, that's their main source of income. I think it was where a lot of the issues stem from, because you just have to go to, like, the lowest common denominator slot bullshit. I I don't know what the solution to that is. Maybe zaps play a piece. Maybe Algo Choice and No Algo stuff plays a piece.

59:35Matt Odell Maybe webs of trust play a piece, but, it's, like, pretty dark where we are in, like, social landscape right now. And there's no easy solutions. Like, I don't it's not healthy. Whatever we're currently doing is not healthy, but I don't pretend to have the answers on, like, what the solution is.

59:55Rod Palmer I'm just curious how far it's gonna go.

59:58Matt Odell What do you mean?

59:60Rod Palmer Well, we're we're getting this weird, you know, people have their their AI girlfriends now. Yep. That's a new thing. Yeah. That's pretty dark. Yeah. Or or, like, is Marty gonna have to do, like, bikini anime picture thumbnails in the future to grab attention? Like, how far does this go?

1:00:22Matt Odell Yeah. I mean, I don't think he will do that. But, on the AI sex bot stuff, like, I think I mean, you wanna talk about dark. I think if if if Elon releases a robot

1:00:41Matt Odell or or or releases a way for you to have VR sex that feels as good as real sex or close, like, half half of society just, like, immediately checks out. Like, I think that's a pretty dark path to think about. And it's probably gonna happen because there's definitely demand for it. But,

1:01:02Rod Palmer I wonder if the mechanic will will think it's okay for core devs to have sex with the R bots.

1:01:09Matt Odell What's your fascination with core devs having sex?

1:01:12Rod Palmer It's not ours. We're we're not we're just we're we're we took a stance that it's okay for them to have sex. That's really that's really big of you.

1:01:20Matt Odell It's important.

1:01:24Rod Palmer Some of the purity tests, they goes they go too far.

1:01:32Matt Odell That's definitely true.

1:01:38Rod Palmer Well, Rod, do you have anything before we go into the fountain booth?

1:01:43Rod Palmer No. Let's do let's do the burst.

1:01:45Rod Palmer Cool. So we interviewed Portland Hoddle. It was a great episode. He was he was the big villain on, on Twitter for a little bit.

1:01:59Matt Odell Yeah. I mean, I think what he did with the, trying to use intentionally use up the bandwidth of people's home nodes was pretty fucked up, to be honest. Well, he didn't do it. He just talked about it. Oh, well, if he did it, it was fucked up.

1:02:15Rod Palmer Yeah. He's I think he's writing a book if I did it, but he would tie he's just gonna talk about how the attack worked, but he didn't actually do it. And nobody's been able to to provide Comcast cable bills to, you know, corroborate the accusations. We've seen no logs.

1:02:33Matt Odell Fair enough.

1:02:38Rod Palmer But, yeah, it was a great interview. Rob Hamilton, first boost, twenty one thousand sats, like, 20 laughing emojis. What do you think? Like, is is Rob Hamilton's giggling problematic?

1:02:55Rod Palmer Should you stop laughing?

1:02:58Matt Odell I don't think Rob can do what he wants to do. Rob's a friend. I definitely don't agree with him on everything.

1:03:07Rod Palmer Do you agree with him on miniscript?

1:03:10Matt Odell I think it's pretty cool. I I mean, it's really it's cool what they were able to build with Anchor Watch using it. I think it's like a it doesn't make sense to me that, like, people, like, care what a company's node preferences are for, like, a nonconsensus change. I think that's a little bit weird, but, you know, people like cancel culture stuff. So

1:03:41Matt Odell maybe that's just more endemic of our current society. On the Gigglegate, specifically, I think it was, like, kind of a bad look for to laugh at node operators potentially getting Yeah. Node operators getting,

1:03:57Matt Odell you know, almost like DDoSed, I guess. But, you know, I also think, like, people make big deals about things that don't really matter.

1:04:07Rod Palmer Yeah. The so the next boost is from Fundamentals, and he's the, you know, what I'll get into him in a second, but he boosted 10,000 sats, and his comment was, the giggler is born. So if you're kind of piecing together the conversation we're having right now about Rob and giggling and nodes being attacked,

1:04:28Rod Palmer so a bunch of rowdy students from Bitcoin University, Matthew Kreider's institution got really upset at Rob for laughing at the plight of com coast node, Comcast nodes run by plebs. So they were trying to cancel him. And there's an ad in the, in the episode at the very beginning that, people are referencing here in these boosts. But,

1:04:50Rod Palmer we've covered that already. I wanted to cover real quickly on fundamentals. He's the author of Bitcoin is for Institutions, and he was in Nashville. We were all in Nashville last summer at the, rabbit hole recap, like, Bitcoin conference event the the at the bar. Yeah. Do you remember that? Do you remember like the rose? Do you remember that comedian that was there? Do you remember who that was? David Lucas. David Lucas and It's way more aggressive than I expected. Anyway, continue.

1:05:20Rod Palmer Alright. Excuse me. Fundamentals loves podcasts and you just mentioned David being aggressive, but Fundamentals kinda has Odell Derangement Syndrome since that night because he thought that you were very grumpy and that you were not handling the, the roast very well. I'm curious to hear your thoughts firsthand about what you were thinking about on stage because

1:05:46Rod Palmer were you, you know, was were you like, I'm a podcaster. You can't be talking about me this way.

1:05:52Matt Odell No. I I I think, you know, the one of the coolest parts of of the shows is, you know, interacting with people all around the world. Like, I think the freaks are fucking awesome. Like, we have a really cool ride or die, community of listeners. And, like, that's the single most positive part of of the shows.

1:06:19Matt Odell And it's what keeps me going. And the in person shows are are extra special because, I mean, in this case, it was our largest in person show that we'd ever done independently, so, like, not at a conference. I think it was, like, 600 people. It's, like, packed out room at this at this, music venue in in Nashville. And we told people that it was family friendly and that they can bring their family. And he just gets up on stage, and the first thing he says is there's a bunch of kids in, like, the front row. And he's like, you all should have been aborted. And I was just like, I've it just sent me off in the wrong direction. So I don't think I was,

1:06:55Matt Odell I I think grumpy is probably the wrong word for it. I think it was more like, and anger is not the right word either, but it was like I was like, I was pretty pissed off at him. No. That was fucked up. More sense, actually.

1:07:11Rod Palmer Yeah.

1:07:12Matt Odell David, that's that's David Lucas's shtick. I know. I had no idea who he was, though. Like, the pub key guys handled that part. I mean, mostly the I mean, I think the pub key guys did a pretty good job with that event planning, and the best part was I didn't have to do any of the planning. So, on that note, like, they do they do deserve credit for that, because I hate planning events. Like, that shit is a slog.

1:07:41Matt Odell It's kinda like a cool ass of you. With me. Bitcoin Park, and we have an event going on right now.

1:07:50Rod Palmer It was a great show. I had a good time. It was a little fun. Right? I hope you guys do more of those. I think the live events are really, really awesome. Yeah. It's a lot of fun. So, yeah, it's a lot a lot of people, they they hug it out when they're in person. You know? They argue on Twitter. They issue each other purity test.

1:08:14Rod Palmer When they're drinking beer together, they hug it out Yeah. Feel better.

1:08:18Matt Odell Yeah. No. I think social media really divides people in general. And that's another unsolved problem. Like, I don't know how we mitigate that, make it a healthier experience for people.

1:08:31Rod Palmer I mean, this this is what we try to we try to constantly do with. We just try to wish him a good day. Hope he has a good day. That's really that's really big of you guys. I'll I wanna give him a hug. I hope he shows up at the RHR event. I'll I'll give him a big hug. We'll smoke a cigarette together. I mean, he might have.

1:08:48Matt Odell He might have been there at the last one.

1:08:50Rod Palmer But Ernie doesn't go to these events because he's, somebody told him that crypto mags will tickle him, and he doesn't he doesn't like to be tickled without consent.

1:09:03Rod Palmer How would you not wanna be tickled by Crypto Max? Alright.

1:09:09Matt Odell Next page. So what did fundamentals say? Did you even say what fundamentals said? You said the giggler's born. Oh, the giggler's born. No. Yeah. The the giggler was a big hit. I mean, you mentioned Odell derangement syndrome. Like, that's a real fucking thing. I, it's kinda crazy. I saw a lot of people hate me now. Kinda unexpected.

1:09:33Rod Palmer Yeah. I I think the people that the haters, what you need to realize is that Bitcoin podcasters are important. Where would Bitcoin be without Bitcoin podcasters? Odell here is, like, one of the longest running Bitcoin podcasters in the world. He's gonna be in the history books. You know, people in the future, they're gonna think of, you know, these these important figures in history, Alexander the Great, George Washington,

1:09:59Rod Palmer Thomas Jefferson, Matt O'Dell.

1:10:04Matt Odell I fucking hate you. But thank you. That was that was kind. I I will say, I think a lot of it stems from what people don't realize is OpenSaaS has probably rejected, like, nearly 2,000 applications. So I think behind most, like, most Odell haters is a rejected OpenSaaS application, and they never say that's what it was. They always make up some other reason for it. Well, how many how many funny because a lot of them I've actually probably voted yes for, but I'm the face, so they blame it on me. Well, how many how many applications has the, the Clinton Foundation or the Bill Hill Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation approved? I don't know. I don't think they're very transparent. I don't know if we have that information.

1:10:50Rod Palmer It's interesting where some people's priorities are. What do you mean? Well, you know, there there's these purity tests that are that are thrown at Bitcoin podcasters, and then there's these, people on the Epstein client list. And it's like, where are you drawing all your energy? Yeah. I think that's a good point. And and and why why are you sitting on the peanut gallery, like, hurling insults at Bitcoin podcasters when you don't even have a podcast? Like, what what ground do you have to stand on? Like, sure. Yeah. You can you can, pass all the purity tests when you're not even, doing anything.

1:11:25Rod Palmer You know what I mean?

1:11:27Matt Odell Yeah. I think that's true.

1:11:29Rod Palmer You can't criticize you can criticize you can criticize anybody you want with the way that they're spending your Bitcoin if you never spent a sat.

1:11:42Matt Odell Yeah. I mean, I just think it's it's weird where people I you know? It's people can focus their time wherever they wanna focus their time, but try and be productive. Yeah.

1:11:55Rod Palmer Shadrach, 10093¢. Says, thank you, gentlemen. Long live the giggler, hashtag 40 HPW. Yeah. The giggler giggler was a hit hit for sure. I really appreciate these Fallon boots. We we got a very committed,

1:12:15Matt Odell group of people. We don't have a pretty good.

1:12:18Rod Palmer We we don't have a name for them yet. We don't call them freaks. I think that's really disrespectful.

1:12:24Rod Palmer We do have a name for them. We call them we call them pioneers. That's kind of our big thing. We we try to get people to stop identifying as, you know, retarded plebs and realize that they're pioneers, that the UX, the user experience on the frontier of, separating money from state and building a new global monetary standard, the user experience is not going to be good. It's not going to be easy. We're pioneers when you just start acting like it. It's not to act them like plebs.

1:12:53Matt Odell I like pioneers. Pioneers is a good one.

1:12:56Rod Palmer Go Pios. Let's see. Did you hear there there's a new rival university out there to rival Bitcoin University. It's called the University of Bitcoin. It's actually a real credentialed university, and their, mascot is the pioneers. That's great.

1:13:13Matt Odell The better education, the better.

1:13:16Rod Palmer I mean, I don't know why you would go to an unaccredited university.

1:13:21Rod Palmer No way. The next boost is from another pioneer, late stage huddle, 2,500 sets. He says, Notre Dame's helmets are painted in gold. As gold demonetizes, then Bitcoin fixes this, and then Notre Dame will have to forego the paint to stack sets.

1:13:40Rod Palmer That's a good point. Demonetization, you know, the dollar falling apart, Bitcoin taking over, it's gonna have an impact on college sports. They're not gonna be able to play to pay, you know, student athletes millions of dollars to play sportsball every Saturday. They're gonna have to they're gonna have to fund Bitcoin podcasters and and and the infrastructure for education a little bit more deliberately.

1:14:07Rod Palmer Notre Dame is such a loser school. What's your what's your opinion on sports ball? You got a favorite sports ball team? You like sports ball?

1:14:16Matt Odell I no. I used to be a big Giants fan. COVID kinda broke it all for me. I think also at the same time, we started a family, and I became a dad and have a lot of work stuff as well. So, like, it's just it's hard for me to devote much time to it. I, like, kinda got, like, burnt out from it. But, like, the whole way, like, all the leagues, like, fucked around with their players and,

1:14:44Matt Odell you know, were, you know, very, like, propagandized like, propaganda driven on the on the, like, vaccines side and stuff, like, kind of really broke it for me. I do, I've been I watch f one a decent amount.

1:15:04Rod Palmer Wouldn't racing be better if they allowed cigarette companies to sponsor cars?

1:15:08Matt Odell Yeah. They used to. They don't anymore, I don't think. Right? I mean, I think it's kind of funny. I think Bitcoin podcasters should have to wear, like, the f one uniforms, like, all the different sponsors on them. Kinda kinda like the the Swan Forcers

1:15:21Rod Palmer back in the day?

1:15:22Matt Odell Yeah. You should have to wear the sponsors all over all over your clothing. Be very obvious. I mean, I like everyone because, like, it's first of all, I think it's it's it's just a cool sport. But second of all, just like the fact that, like, it's one of the few ones where you can actually, like, still die in them, which I think keeps it.

1:15:44Rod Palmer Well, for a while there, a lot of players on the football field and other sports were dying because they made them get vaccinated.

1:15:50Matt Odell Yeah.

1:15:53Rod Palmer You can type podcasting these days. Pretty crazy.

1:15:56Matt Odell That's true too. I like going to live sports. You know, I've been watching way less TV in general. So I like live sports are fun. Live music is fun. Like, it's just cool being at events.

1:16:09Rod Palmer You should be able to do a lot more live podcasts. Yeah. I have a live podcast studio.

1:16:18Rod Palmer It's a great idea. Well, let's blast through these booths. Tim Satoshi double boosted us, so thank you for your time. Everything Satoshi 500 sat says, the people complaining about Portland HODL are people who missed out on Bitcoin Twitter spaces during the bear market, the 69

1:16:41Rod Palmer to 15 k era. Some of the stuff mentioned in those spaces can't be discussed today courtesy of the oversensitive less Bitcoin educated suit coiners and noobs. I support NODs, Datum, and Notion, but Matthew Crowder was wrong about this one. Love Crowder, though. Well, it's nice that you love Matthew.

1:17:04Rod Palmer No. Real quick, before we blast you the rest of these, we forgot to ask you. What is your how do you feel about suit coiners? Are you a fan of the suit coiners? Are you some people think you may have coined the term suit coiner, although creditor takes credit.

1:17:20Matt Odell What are your thoughts there? I think I might have been the first person to say it, but, also, I don't really give a shit. What? Joe's looking at me. Do do we never admit you in the room? I think I was the first person to say. I have the I have my Twitter archive, so I can pull up the date.

1:17:42Matt Odell But, anyway, it doesn't really matter. I like just putting words in front of corners. So, like, precoiners, no corners. I mean, obviously, I didn't come up with the term no corners. Bitcoin deniers. But, the suit corners, look, I think, I think they're aligned, obviously, because of of Bitcoin alignment. It's like what we talked about earlier.

1:18:06Matt Odell I do think, every you know, everyone's welcome to do whatever they want, but this whole, like, leverage Bitcoin equity, like, MSTR strategy play is, like, not interesting to me. I think Saylor has absolutely crushed the game on that front. It's, like, very much MSTR and then everyone else. But at this point, it's it's, like, clearly, like,

1:18:31Matt Odell like, a bottom tier grift on, like, a bunch of these plays. And it's like, everybody is, like, just selling out and, like, launching some random fucking Bitcoin penny stock, that doesn't actually, like, have an operating business. Like, doesn't actually, like, you know, they and then they implicitly

1:18:54Matt Odell try and get you to buy the stock instead of Bitcoin. So it's, like, it's pretty lame. It's kinda boring. I don't think it's bad for Bitcoin. I think it probably broke the any any remainder of moral high ground that, like, the online Bitcoin maximum maximalism community had. Like, how can you you know?

1:19:19Matt Odell You know, I think actions speak louder than words, and it's like it's, I I I mean, I'd rather not name names, but, like, I don't know. Like, a lot of these are just fucking

1:19:40Matt Odell just fucking garbage, and people are just in it to, like, hopefully get rich quick, at the expense of whatever their audience is. Because, I mean, you look at, like, the the boards and stuff, and it's just like, oh, who has the most Twitter followers? We'll just draft you in.

1:19:58Rod Palmer I appreciate you not naming names. We don't Do you? We don't allow anti suanatism on the podcast. I don't know. I mean, I think I think, like, having a formalized,

1:20:15Matt Odell influencer draft is a great idea. I mean, that's basically what it kinda you guys should do that. Like, is that's how what it feels like. It feels like all these people are, like, free agents, and they're getting drafted by whichever penny stock, gives them the best deal. But, yeah, look. At the end of the day, I'm also a free market guy, so people have the right to get wrecked, and they should, you know, take personal responsibility for their actions. Yep. And, obviously,

1:20:48Matt Odell you know, more demand for Bitcoin helps all Bitcoiners because we see our purchasing power increase. And, I don't know. Like, some people, like, would prefer to be poor. Like, I'd rather my purchasing power, my money increase. It makes everything easier in life, if your savings can buy more shit Oh, yeah. Over time.

1:21:10Rod Palmer Well, let me blast through the rest of these, god's death two thirty seven says, thank you, gentlemen. Pies. 121 says, you know Pies. Right? I don't know what you're talking about. Oh, you don't know the Nostra user Pies?

1:21:26Matt Odell Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course.

1:21:28Rod Palmer Says yo yo yo salute, strong-arm, mushroom emoji, hashtag 40 h p w. Dave, a 100 says, we ain't going nowhere. We ain't going nowhere. We can't be stopped now because it's bad boy for life.

1:21:48Rod Palmer C p o b v, average Gary, a 100 sat says, there's a Bitcoin underground on Nostr that Portland HODL is missing out on. Yeah. We gave Portland a hard time for not being on Nostr.

1:21:59Matt Odell Yeah. I mean, I it's weird that more Bitcoiners don't use it, but, you know, network effects are a bitch, and a lot of people are obsessed with engagement. So until we get more users, those people will not use Oster. Doesn't really even matter what the UX is like. Yeah.

1:22:22Rod Palmer Average Gary, a 100, says, like, a heart hand emote symbol emoji. Bitcoin golf pro, 100¢, says greatness. Thank you. BTC onboard, 100¢. Good friend, BTC onboard. Glad you listen. Three laughing emojis,

1:22:39Rod Palmer and that's it, folks, for the foundation. Mister O'Dell, you're a true pioneer.

1:22:49Matt Odell Thank you, sir.

1:22:50Rod Palmer I feel I feel like I'm talking to an elder statesman right now.

1:22:56Rod Palmer Any advice for for people who it's gonna be hard not to be grumpy, I have a feeling, the next few years. What is your advice for people to to break past the grumps?

1:23:08Matt Odell Be happy and optimistic about the future? Why do you think it's gonna be hard not to be grumpy?

1:23:14Rod Palmer Well, you're not on x, but if you have been paying attention and monitoring the situation, the world is not not going in a great direction right now.

1:23:25Matt Odell Yeah. I mean, I'd I tend to agree with that, but I think, on the Bitcoin side, we're probably in the best Bitcoin timeline. It's hard to imagine Bitcoin being in a better place right now. So I think people should find, joy in that and not take it for granted. It's really weird. Like,

1:23:48Matt Odell this is the first real bull market where, like, the Bitcoin prices as the Bitcoin price is increasing, like, people are getting more mad. Right? Like, we used to be happy together. And I think part of it is also because, like, of the Bitcoin penny stocks. Because, like, sometimes, you know, the penny stock pumps and Bitcoin doesn't pump, so the penny stock people are happy. And then sometimes Bitcoin pumps, but the penny stock doesn't pump, so then the penny stock people are upset. So, like, we're not, like, as all in it together in terms of, like,

1:24:19Matt Odell our bags at the same time. It's, like, very much like a shitcoin dynamic in that regard. Right? Like, Solana Solana dumps from Bitcoin pumps. You know? So it's, like, an interesting phenomenon how much rage there's been, but I think it's probably gonna be even more rageful. Like, it's gonna be so just, like, enjoy the pump. You know? Enjoy enjoy Bitcoin

1:24:44Matt Odell being adopted and increasing in in use and and purchasing power is just fucking awesome to see. And then the second piece is, like, I find a lot of hope in in the open source movement. I I think, ultimately, like, giving people agency over their lives and and independence and and freedom to choose how they live their digital lives is,

1:25:07Matt Odell something that will result in in better human flourishing and and and just better, you know, better results for individuals themselves. So that's where I focus most of my time. To me, I've there's, you know, real optimism there, and it's actionable, and it's something that I can actually change. And then last but not least, like, you know, I have a I have a growing young family, and,

1:25:33Matt Odell that's fucking awesome. I I I it's it's an incredibly exhausting, rewarding, beautiful experience. And so, like, focus on the things that you can change, focus on what matters, and enjoy the little things. Don't get caught up in

1:25:51Matt Odell all the bullshit out there because there's so much fucking bullshit. People are just get angry about things that just don't matter. Yeah.

1:25:59Rod Palmer If that my final thoughts on that is if you thought hyper Bitcoinization was gonna be easy, you did not. You're not listening to forty hours of Bitcoin podcasts per week.

1:26:13Matt Odell Thank you, mister O'Dell, for coming on. Thank you for having me, gentlemen. Anytime. I I enjoyed it and, very lucky in the Bitcoin community to have a friend. The voice of the people providing less potential for this journalism. Thank you.

1:26:43Kailey Welch Cool? Odell is confused and doesn't think Glenn is hot. He's a gay bear who needs to be taught. Staying humble is cool during the bear market. But this is the bull, everyone will join. Webs and podcasters are the vanguard. The world is going to use a Bitcoin

1:27:21Kailey Welch standard. A Bitcoin standard. If you think about it closely, Matt is plain wrong. We'll have a bright future because Bitcoiners are strong. We are all about to get rich beyond our imaginations.

1:27:48Kailey Welch Podcasters will be royalty deciding the fate of nations. So will this this time be different? Only time will tell. Are we walking into heaven? Or are we assuring in hell? The spooks are here and they don't play by the rules. You can see if you pay attention to the clues. Bitcoin will go up price in USDT.

1:28:11Kailey Welch That doesn't mean that we won't necessarily be free. Wanting wealth and comfort is not a sin. People are tired, they just wanna catch a win. Remember all the people who were lazy,

1:28:57Kailey Welch didn't listen to podcasts and called us crazy. Back then, we listened to forty hours every week. Hearing Matt and Marty call us freaks. They listen to their podcast while they were poor. Bitcoin starting pumping and their prospects began to soar. Marty Bent says his time is different, and I think he might be right. But Matt's a gamer thinking