0:00Richard Greaser Folks, we have a special show today. This is an intellectual Silk Road episode. Rod Palmer still out of commission, but he will be back soon. Today, joining me is Avi Burra of the Plug Chain Radio podcast. Plug Chain Radio, I think, was the second podcast I ever went on after starting the bugle. They have been some of the biggest supporter

0:27Richard Greaser supporters of our show, of our of the bugle in general. And I'm a huge fan of the stuff that Avi is doing. I'm excited to get into this. Avi, what do you what do you got going on? How are you doing tonight?

0:45Avi Burra I'm doing well and happy to be here, mister Griese. Big fan of The Bugle. I might have been one of the first listeners of The Bugle podcast. Definitely one of the first boosters, if I if I'm not mistaken. I I remember listening to your first episode, and,

1:03Avi Burra you have this intro with Joe Rogan and Morgan Freeman and all all these others. And I and I thought that was one of the best podcast intros, I'd heard. I mean, now you've been doing it for so long that it's you you people can't expect it. But at that time, in in the first Beagle episode, when when you had that three or four minute long intro with all of these voices, it was, yeah, it was quite something. So, yes,

1:27Avi Burra big fan of the show. And, yeah, what so you asked what have I got going on? I have a few things going on. Blockchain Radio, as you mentioned, it's a weekly ongoing podcast. We we stream live on Nostra, and then it's up on fountain and other podcasting platforms. The next day, I also have a travel show called Finding Home, and this is video.

1:54Avi Burra And it's it's sort of Anthony Bourdain inspired. I travel the world, talk to Bitcoiners. Preferably not about Bitcoin, but more about the lives they're leading, how they're finding home in a new land, and, we try to eat delicious food, walk around the town, talk about the architecture, and so on. And Bitcoin does creep in, somehow. But, yeah, that's I have that going on. Two officially released episodes. Third one, in postproduction,

2:25Avi Burra should be out in about a month. And the fourth one was just recorded, in in The UK. So that'll be out sometime in March. And then the other thing I have going on is, I'm also an author. I write fiction,

2:41Avi Burra surrealist, magic realist, mystery thrillers, whatever you wanna call them, with Bitcoin as a fairly core theme. I've just released my second novel. It's called July 18. It's the sequel to my first one twenty four, which I released in 2023. So, yeah, I have that going on, and then I'm tinkering. I'm also a technologist, so I'm tinkering around with some web of trust stuff

3:06Avi Burra on Nostra. I have a company I cofounded called Nostfabrica.

3:13Richard Greaser Very cool. Yeah. I'm looking on the Indie Hub right now. I only see episode two. I didn't watch episode one yet. I saw the episode two. It should be there on IndieHub. I will find it eventually. But, yeah, I I thought that was good. It is a cool travel show. It's better than the stuff that the the trash that they're putting out PBS, I would say. I think you have a bright career ahead of you

3:40Richard Greaser in regards to travel. I've been meaning to read your books, and I have not gotten around to it. I feel real bad about that.

3:51Avi Burra They're big books. It takes time. These are not quick reads.

3:58Richard Greaser Do you have the audiobook out yet?

4:02Avi Burra No. I don't. And that that is a project in and of itself. First of all, like I said, they're long books. So the first one is about a 150,000 words. The sequel, July 18, which I just released, is about a 180,000 words. So it's a solid,

4:19Avi Burra maybe twenty hour commitment, to to record each one. The other thing is, which I haven't fully figured out is because they're books of fiction and they're multiple voices. I've maybe it's just a matter of sitting down and doing it and seeing what it'll what it sounds like, but because they're multiple voices, I and some male, some female, I I just don't know how to even begin. Right? Do I just read in in a monotone

4:48Avi Burra all of these voices, or do I change the cadence? Do I change the pitch? Yeah. So lot lot of things to juggle. But at some point, there will be audiobooks. Yes.

4:60Richard Greaser Yeah. I think you just gotta do impressions. You know what I mean? Like, the the really good audiobook, readers, they do impressions. I'm curious, like, you know, how would you do, like, a a hot girl impression of her voice versus a not hot girl? Oh,

5:20Avi Burra I don't know, actually. Maybe just make it more the hot girl impression would be more breathy, I suppose, husky huskier voice,

5:33Avi Burra but, obviously, I'd have to higher the pitch. I'm I'm not particularly good at, impressions, Richard, so I'd probably end end up completely botching it and and offending people in the process.

5:48Richard Greaser Well, it's impossible not to offend people. But, yeah. I mean, I think it'd be interesting, like, you what you could even do is, you know, for the hot ones, you could have, like, a a Lynn Alden impression or, like, a a cloned voice.

6:03Richard Greaser And then, for the not hot ones, you could do an e frat. What what's her name? Ferguson or Focusing?

6:13Avi Burra Yeah. Look. I I think you just gave me an idea, actually, which is there is eleven Labs, which is really good for AI generated voices. That might be something to look into, actually. The I could pick do it on Eleven Labs, and then I could just do the narrator voice. You might have solved my problem there, Richard.

6:37Richard Greaser Yeah. I think I think, like, having the hot girls be Lynn Alden or Gloria Zhao, and the not hot ones be Efret, Fenixson, and, Michelle Weekley would be, that'd be great.

6:54Richard Greaser I'd listen to that. And then you all the male voices could be you, and then you could tap QW probably for some of it.

7:03Avi Burra Sure. Or I could just use ElevenLabs.

7:08Richard Greaser Well, you could clone your voice and KeyW voice. You can clone anybody's voice that you want it.

7:14Avi Burra Right. Have you actually, have you used ElevenLabs? So I I did a podcast of a brief experiment where I was, talking to Claude, and I had Claude's pro so my voice would turn into a text prompt, which should go to the Claude API.

7:32Avi Burra And then cloud's responses would go to the Eleven Labs API, which would and for each episode, I'd use a different voice, for the character. So it was basically performance art using AI. I tried there was one episode where I really wanted

7:49Avi Burra Volodymyr Zelensky's voice, so I found a video of his or audio of his rather. And I played it into ElevenLabs cloning, and it did not allow me to clone his voice. Basically, what it does is it it it does the the initial training, and then it says, okay. Now I will generate a sentence, and you need to tell you need to speak the the sentence in the same voice.

8:15Avi Burra And, obviously, I couldn't. So maybe there are some open source, voice cloning tools out there, but the standard ones have pretty strict controls out there.

8:26Richard Greaser Well, just for the CIA assets. They they protect those ones.

8:32Avi Burra Fair enough.

8:33Richard Greaser Those are like they got Zelensky flag. They're like, yeah. This guy, we can't have anybody saying cloning his voice, but, you know, any Joe Schmo out there. I guess that's, like, a good way that's a great way to to tell if somebody's a spook or not. You just put them into the 11 labs and figure out if it lets you clone their voice or not. Should test Good point. Yeah. Well, what what does the writing process look like for you?

9:03Richard Greaser Those are some pretty lengthy books. How do you organize it? Do you use any sort of specific software? I mean, I'm in the middle of a few books. I just keep on, getting distracted with other projects.

9:17Avi Burra I would think fiction is a little different from nonfiction. I have you know, when I start the story, I have a general sense of what's gonna happen, like, very broad strokes, plot. And then

9:35Avi Burra I start writing it. And in in both books, this this is what happened. I'd I'd write something, you know, I I definitely have one one chapter planned out. Right? And that the way I do it is I break a chapter up into scenes and each scene up, by beats. Right? Little stages within each scene. By the time I finish writing one scene, it's easy to plan one scene out. Right? If there's five or six beats, I don't know. Scene can be a thousand words, which is about three pages, maybe two

10:05Avi Burra double that. So it's easy to think that far ahead. What and and I plan that out. I I write out the scene, and within that, that might trigger some a new thought, something that I hadn't thought about, a new idea. So that that then flows into the next scene. I I'm able to structure that and or modify what the initial idea idea I had there. So for both of these books, the story, while I when I started it, I had a general sense of what I was gonna write. It changed constantly as I was writing it.

10:38Richard Greaser Mhmm. Was that pretty painful? Were you having to go back and rewrite things pretty frequently? Or

10:48Avi Burra Not that much. I had to do two or three rewrites, because the plot lines are pretty intricate. And when I change something when I wanted a certain outcome, you know, in chart let's say, chapter 10, I needed to go back to chapter four and change something so that it would line up with that. But it it wasn't a lot of that.

11:08Avi Burra So the first book I wrote, I had zero AI help, in so that that was '24. I wrote that in 2023. In fact, the so ChartGPT was in its very early days then. I wrote most of the book in 2022 and and early twenty twenty three. And the only time I used ChartGPT is where I needed some German text, So I needed something to be translated in German. That's what I used it for. I think for for July 18, I used I actually mostly used Gemini

11:39Avi Burra for line and copy editing, for the first pass. So what I'd write a page or or I'd write a scene. I'd put it into, into Gemini, and I'd say, hey. Give me find all the issues, syntax, whatever, and and it would flag a few things. And I'd say, okay. Are there any phrases that I can

11:58Avi Burra this is the idea in in this line that I was trying to convey. Can I reframe it? Is or is it coming across? And it would have most of the time, I I didn't directly take the AI suggestions. But a lot of times, it would give me an idea which I would then take and put my own tweak on. It's something that I might not have thought about. So July 18 was a very interesting process, sort of interactive with AI, write something, put it into AI, AI comes back with something that triggers another thought that helps me, tweak something.

12:29Avi Burra So, no, it wasn't frustrating at all. And what so the difference between 24, the first novel, and July 18 is when I then put it in the hands of the human editor, 24 took forever because there were all sorts of mistakes in it and, syntax errors, you know, like putting the comma outside the quote instead of rather than inside the quote. You know, those kinds of basic things, those errors were 99.9%

12:57Avi Burra eliminated with July 18 because the AI just cleaned all of that stuff up.

13:04Richard Greaser Well, I imagine one of the great things about the type of audience that's reading your book is in the early runs of it is pretty easy to to get grammar Nazis to go in and correct any errors that the editor missed. Do you know you know how big white people are? Yep. So, yeah, what what are the ideas that you're trying to communicate in the book or in the books?

13:30Avi Burra I think broadly. Right? As a Bitcoiner, I believe that this movement or whatever you want to call this revolution is only going to be successful with maximal adoption. So how do we get

13:48Avi Burra as many people into the fold and into into understanding Bitcoin and using it as money? You can certainly lecture them about distributed systems and about Austrian economics and so on. And that yeah. I'm sure that has an audience, but I think that's it's a very limited audience that's swayed by those types

14:10Avi Burra of pedantic academic, arguments. I think the vast majority of adoption is gonna happen through stories. And so that really is the idea to talk really tell very human stories, stories that I want to tell, first of all. Right? It's a this the both books are about a young man grappling with the unexpected death of his father and, you know, stumbling onto a a secret and learning things about his father that he didn't know while his father was alive and in the process discovering something about himself. But Bitcoin is very much a part of it as a as an underlying theme.

14:47Avi Burra So the idea is that, you know, people reading it connect with that human story. And then in the process, you know, because Bitcoin is just so omnipresent, they say, what is this thing? Maybe this is I should look into this. Right? And this is the idea behind my show as well, Finding Home. Right? It's tell tell inspiring stories of people doing amazing things, of pioneers, building things in a in a new land. And then there's there's food and, you know, there's architecture, there's fun conversations, and then becomes just there in in the background. And, you know, that's how I think,

15:22Avi Burra we drive maximal adoption is is through stories, is through film, is through art, through music and other cultural media.

15:35Richard Greaser Absolutely. I'm very I've I mean, these are ideas that I've I've been trying to propagate as well. Because I think the storytelling is, has been historically pretty shallow. There there's some there's some shining examples

15:56Richard Greaser of individuals who are compelling storytellers. Mhmm. But a a good story this is why I like Atlas Shrugged so much is because it is it's a very compelling story. It's a compelling story talking about human dignity and, like, you know, individuals are, like, really reclaiming, a sense of self and and purpose or or just maintaining a sense of self and purpose in a world that just does it it actually despises people

16:26Richard Greaser that have a sense of self and purpose and are willing to use their minds. And I I think that's such a relevant and compelling story in our age, that we find ourselves in. And I think it's wonderful that you're doing that.

16:44Avi Burra And I think there is so much nihilism and so much doomerism in the world today, especially I mean, when, Anwaran wrote, Attish Shrugged, I I don't think it could have been as bad as as it is right now. Like, we're in late stage modernism where, you know, throwing destroying priceless works of art is considered a a major statement. Right? Are the people throwing soup on on these magnificent paintings to because climate change or whatever. Right? So we are in in such deep nihilistic territory that to have stories that are soaring about about the human spirit, the, aspirational

17:22Avi Burra that create hope, I think is is critically important. And, you know, again, Ayn Rand obviously wrote her her books, both the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged in during a time where things might not have been as bleak, but they still were soaring epics, right, of people try like you said, reclaiming their sovereignty, finding hope despite

17:45Avi Burra all the trials and tribulations they have to go through in the process.

17:50Richard Greaser Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it it was a really interesting time in history. The fountain head was written well, she was just started writing it in 1938, published it in 1943, and Atlas Shrugged right after it, 1946

18:11Richard Greaser is when she started writing it. So it took her eleven years to write Atlas Shrugged, so she published it in 1957.

18:20Avi Burra That was an interesting time in history. I mean, that right around World War two, right few years after the Great Depression. Was she in New York? I I can't remember. Where was she?

18:32Richard Greaser I think she lived around a little bit. Like, she was in LA for a little bit because she was trying to be an actress. Mhmm. But I do think she spent some time in New York. Yeah. Right.

18:44Avi Burra You know, it was a few years after the Great Depression and World War two just begun, and then World War two ended by presume. Right? Did you say 1957 was when she published After Shrugged? Mhmm. Yeah. And that so that was that that strange era of rebuilding, picking up the pieces, right about to enter the madman era, certainly in New York,

19:07Avi Burra and but also other parts of the country. Yeah. It was certainly very interesting time.

19:15Richard Greaser A a book that I really enjoyed and I think was informative for me was written right around the same time as The Fountainhead was, The Road to Serfdom by Hayek. Mhmm. Published in 1944. And, I think that's another book that's, you know, very relevant

19:34Richard Greaser to the stuff that we're seeing today. You know? And it ran I think her perspective was informed in a unique way by having an outsider view from coming from the Soviet Union. So she you know? What what Hayek was seeing was all these different ideologies, fascism, communism really, you know, playing around,

19:56Richard Greaser in the communities that he was in. I think he was in The UK, you know, and there there were a bunch of people slurping up communist pep slop and fascist pep slop and, you know, and that was, you know, his reaction to that. You know, it was the commentary on the the economics of these different systems and, you know, advocating for free markets and, you know, Rand coming to The US, you know, from the Soviet Union, viewing that and seeing that these communist, you know, run around propagating these ideas. I I bet it was pretty alarming for her, you know, coming to a society that was significantly more open and free

20:37Richard Greaser and seeing people propagate ideas that, you know, she thought would lead to just, you know, destruction. And, it's it's I think the striking thing

20:54Richard Greaser for me and and one of the things I try and explain to people oftentimes is that, you know, things really haven't changed in a lot of ways. Like, people are just as retarded today as if they as they have ever been. And, like, the the themes that you see in these stories are irrelevant. They they they repeat over and over again. And, I think one of the importances

21:19Richard Greaser of a good story and being a good storyteller is having relevance for a long time. You know? Because if you really tap into something that's real and is true, it's not just like you're you're doing commentary for what's happening in the moment,

21:39Richard Greaser but you're doing commentary on just the human condition in a lot of ways. But so, you know, you talk about these characters, you know, this man or this boy who loses his father. Like, where where do you get inspiration for these characters? How do you

22:01Richard Greaser develop them? And, you know, what does that process look like? Because I I think a good author is just so effective at at understanding people and bringing depth into their characters, making them realistic. Like, that's what draws somebody into a story. So what did that process look like for you?

22:23Avi Burra Yes. Sorry. I've my mic got cut off. Can you can you hear me? Is Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You know, it's it's there wasn't this this is not something that happened to me. Right? Because my parents are very much

22:40Avi Burra still alive and around, and my my father certainly didn't leave any secrets, behind. But,

22:53Avi Burra how did I find this character? I don't know. It just it just came to me. I I I have this idea about well, you know, so here's here's the funny thing. Right? So this is a young man in in his early twenties, right, who's the protagonist. And, and and then, you know, his his father son dies suddenly. The father's in his early fifties, and then, you know, he through visions and so on, he's he's he finds out these secrets about his father. After I wrote the book, I felt really pleased with myself, '24. Right? And and then July 18 as well, of course,

23:27Avi Burra the sequel. But, after '24, I was thinking about it saying sort of pondering the similar question that you you brought up, Bridgette, where did this come from? And if you think about it, these are archetypical stories. Right? A young a young man communicating with a ghost of his dead father

23:47Avi Burra who leads him to a dangerous secret. I mean, the the the most famous one is Hamlet. Right? It's so and and then that that story sort of recurs through literature. So maybe it was just the subconscious echo of all the books and plays and whatnot that I, you know, that seeped in through osmosis that created the idea

24:13Avi Burra for this. Right? Because it is essentially a a variation of Hamlet. Young man's father suddenly dies who and his ghost leads him to a very dangerous secret about a life that he had no idea existed.

24:30Richard Greaser Alright. We had technical difficulties and had to stop, lost the train of thought. Pod you know? Podcast is hard work.

24:40Avi Burra It is.

24:42Richard Greaser Yeah. I like to I like to challenge people. You know? There there's a lot of people that sit on the peanut gallery, and they're like they they got strong opinions about things, but they don't have a podcast. And I like to tell them, like, why don't you start a podcast? Like, mister Hoddle. What's that guy doing with his life?

25:01Avi Burra Is that is that a Twitter personality? I'm I'm so out of touch with what's happening on Twitter now.

25:07Richard Greaser Yeah. He he's, like, a long, long time Twitter personality who who thinks he has a really important opinion, and he sits in Twitter spaces and, argues with Nazis all day about nothing. But he he had, like, one good exchange back in the block size wars with, Jihan Wu, and now he thinks he's, he's cool.

25:32Avi Burra But you it is interesting. So I I don't know this person specifically, but there there's a general trend with a lot of Bitcoin influencers, especially, where people are famous for reasons that are completely unclear to me. And then I find out, oh, this guy did a rant once and it went viral.

25:55Avi Burra Or he said something or there was three three times on Clubhouse where he'd said something interesting back in 2021. And now, you you know, the he he's one of the biggest big or he or she is one of the biggest, you know, big con influencers. It's just bizarre to me how fame or infamy or whatever you want to call it, is earned in this space.

26:18Richard Greaser Are you talking about American Auto?

26:21Avi Burra Well, I was I've no no person in general, but, I'm sorry. No or rather no person in particular, but there seems to be a general trend, with a lot of Bitcoin influencers.

26:33Richard Greaser Yeah. It is strange. I mean, Internet virality is a very weird phenomenon that you you kinda see across the board. Like, Hocktoo was the most recent example of this, where

26:49Richard Greaser she was the hottest thing in the world until she rug pulled her meme coin.

26:54Avi Burra It is absolutely bizarre to me how that person rose to that level of fame and and fortune, presumably. For, yeah, for for a viral video, that was pretty stupid. Right? I mean, there was nothing intelligent about what happened in that ten second exchange or fifteen second exchange that went viral. And

27:19Avi Burra and and yet, you know, your person suddenly has 500,000 or million subscribe subscribers or or or followers or whatever you wanna call it and is all the rage. He's being invited to speak on TV shows and podcasts and whatnot.

27:36Avi Burra Amazing.

27:37Richard Greaser Would you have her on Plug Chain Radio? Absolutely not. I would have her on the Beagle for sure. I've been trying to get her on the Beagle. What would you talk about? Well, she I I I wanna know what she thinks of Ross and, probably technique. I don't know. I'm sure there's a plenty to talk to her about. That that was the weird thing is she

28:03Richard Greaser right when she was blowing up, she showed up at the Bitcoin conference. She did. Yeah. And she was running around. She was talking about free Ross. It was all it was all very, you know, strange. And then she launched a shit coin. And, yeah. I don't know. Inner Internet virality

28:23Richard Greaser is is very strange. It yeah. I don't know how much of it's manufactured. It's hard it's hard to tell, what's what's real in the world we live in, you know, where these people come from. And because, I I do think there are individuals that have the ability to pull levers and and make people into something that might not be very significant.

28:48Richard Greaser But you just think about, like, there there's some blonde girl, some hot blonde girl out there that has been putting the hours in day after day, making TikTok videos, showing, you know, videos of her flexing her butt in yoga pants, and all of a sudden, Hock Toa Girl comes up on the scene. Like, how does that make yoga pants girl feel?

29:12Avi Burra Yeah. Maybe it is manufactured a a virality. Maybe there is some hidden hand that's looking to promote certain people, and it has its ways of doing it. Who knows? Yeah. I it makes me wonder. I mean, like, just going back to the the Bitcoin space, I've 95%

29:32Avi Burra of the the people in in Bitcoin, of if I had to pick a number, right, I've said 95%. It's you listen to them and and it's it makes no sense. How do these people have such large followings?

29:49Avi Burra How do they, I mean, the the it's the I I mean, you call it pep slop, Richard. I call it influencer slop. Right? Regurgitating the same old tired lines about NGU or about how terrible the state is and, it's it is bizarre to me. And and then you have, you know, incredible podcast like Uncoverable Misfits and what what what do you guys do and and others. And it's like,

30:17Avi Burra there's there's not much I oh, what was the the the Otis Bit My One Sound Coffee? That's that's my one of my new favorite podcasts. Right? Fundamentals does, amazing podcasts. And, talking about real things, having real conversations with real people, and

30:36Avi Burra you you see nothing there. Minimal recognition or reward of any sort other than the work itself, presumably. Right? But there there doesn't seem to be too much resonance from the external world for, you know, frankly, very, very good content.

30:57Richard Greaser Well, I think I think it's because and and why is PubSlop effective? Is in in many ways, Bitcoin is like learning about it is a process of de retardize it re

31:14Richard Greaser de retardization. Because most of the time, individuals don't have to learn about anything ever. They they they just the the what the learning process is is it's it's memorizing,

31:31Richard Greaser that's why I never liked math in school. Like, math was interesting from, like, a puzzle standpoint, but, like, algebra. I like geometry more than algebra. But algebra is just about memorizing, formulas, essentially, over and over again. And, like, you could you could solve any problem if you know the correct formula, which is, you know, kind of a way lame way to learn in my opinion. But that's

31:57Richard Greaser that's how, you know, the fiat world teaches people essentially. It's like, this is the formula. You you check this box and, you know, you ask this question to this person, you push this paper this direction, and, you know, you do this thing. But there there's not a lot of creative thought that is encouraged. Mhmm. And, so they I think they're they're attracted to that. They're attracted to to things because, you know, Bitcoin is

32:25Richard Greaser a difficult concept to understand because it's very abstract. Like, you have to listen to forty hours of Bitcoin podcast a week to understand it. And, most people aren't willing to do that because that competes with, Netflix time or, you know, whatever else, sports ball. And, you know, but for individuals that are learning about it, you know, oftentimes, it's it's one of the first things they've ever actually spent the time to actually learn about. And, one of the parts, you know, that's interesting about Bitcoin is is it's interactive. There's a lot of ways to interact with it, whereas, you know, a lot of other things, there there isn't so much. But, I mean, you even see it, like, in in the music world. You know, oftentimes when people are being taught about music, they're just being taught formulas, like how to play other people's music. They're not being taught how to write it. They're not

33:15Richard Greaser being taught how to do that. You know, when you're when you're being taught how to write, you know, you're not taught how to develop characters and and and tell compelling stories in a lot of ways. You're you're trying to write for the purpose of, you know, impressing a teacher Mhmm. Or something. Not not from, like, a how do you captivate somebody's attention and draw them into,

33:41Richard Greaser a story? And so I I think that general, you know, attitude of, like, I I think it's largely because in in many ways, the frontier has been settled almost universally. And, you know, as a result of things being settled and and relatively, like, calm and safe, they're like, there's not really that need to learn because I think

34:09Richard Greaser that's generally how and when humans go through the process of learning and thinking about things critically is it's not always just an inherent desire, but it's it's a necessity. And there there isn't the same level of necessity today as there, you know, has been historically. I think, like, oftentimes the greatest points in history, you know, that art flows out of are are times of great, you know, upheaval and and and challenge.

34:46Avi Burra And yeah. Is that true, though, Richard? I mean, I know it feels that way. You said the frontier has been settled, sort of another way of saying there's nothing new under the sun. I wonder if at different points in history, like in the eighteen fifties or whatever, did did people feel that way? That, oh, everything that's, you know, that had to be done is done. Like, what's there for us to do? Right? It's there there there are no new frontiers. So I I wonder if if that's just a natural human state of of being in the moment and thinking that there is nothing new under the sun.

35:22Richard Greaser Well, I I I do think there's always a frontier. You know, in many ways, Bitcoin is the frontier. And, you know, the individuals that are you know, I think that you're identifying as interesting are people that are actually embarking out on the frontier and trying to learn about this thing and, you know, engage with it in an interesting way and and try to shape the world around them. Whereas the people that you find uninteresting

35:52Richard Greaser are the people that are trying to integrate it into the world that they're already content with. Like, that's the, they're they're they're trying to take this technology and mold it to what they already have, and that's kind of the contrast. But, I mean, AI is a frontier too in a lot of ways that is rapidly changing the world. And I think there's a huge difference between individuals that are using it as a

36:18Richard Greaser force multiplier for creativity, like, in ways that you have done, testing things, experimenting with things, and then people that are just, you know, trying to get it to do the thinking for them. Mhmm.

36:32Avi Burra Yeah. Yeah. I think some of or a lot of this actually feeds into the attention economy, which we so why are people not being more bold? Right? Why why are they not taking risks? And why why are they not trying to be pioneers? Because there is a formula, like you said. Like like with algebra, there's a formula. You apply it and you get the result. And the formula is you you learn how to tame the algorithm, and it's typically with some form of outrage or or scandal or or or controversy or something like that. Right? It's typically some kind of negative emotion.

37:12Avi Burra You learn how to tame the algorithm that way, and you get the attention. And the attention drives up your revenue through advertising or responses or what have you. And it's just a it's a self contained, it was a self contained death spiral, honestly. Because, I mean, society erodes slowly and inexorably in the process. You might not feel it in the moment, but over a long enough time horizon, it just

37:40Avi Burra it is the true decay of society. Right? There's people trapped in these attention attention casinos. That's what they are. Gambling away their precious time, to play these games. And,

37:54Avi Burra and I think that's that's why we we we see so many people so many people stuck in this and so few trying to break out of it, trying to be true pioneers because there is a lot of risk in being a pioneer. Why not use the tried and tested formula? Yes. We'll talk about Bitcoin, this amazing thing. But really, why we talk about Bitcoin? To make more fiat by gaming the attention economy.

38:18Richard Greaser Absolutely. So what what do you think your, what's different about you? Why why do you think you've approached things differently instead of being a plub sloper?

38:29Avi Burra Listen, man. I I probably would have been a plub sloper if I didn't have a few awakenings, along the way. One was, I got into the blockchain world, blockchain crypto world in '27 '16. 2017 worked in that industry as a technologist

38:49Avi Burra during the heyday of blockchain, not Bitcoin. In fact, I worked at a company whose CEO coined that phrase, for a for a couple of years. And then at some point, maybe the the the there was a part of me that actually believed I was doing the right thing. And and and thank heaven for that, that I had some kind

39:11Avi Burra of moral compass that said, you know what? I'm doing something, and it's the right thing. And then I was, as you could imagine, I I was completely wrecked in the process intellectually wrecked where, you know, two or three years into this blockchain world, you realize it's complete nonsense. And the only thing that makes sense in this world is Bitcoin. So I think that sort of that's that was one of the awakenings.

39:36Avi Burra And then there are few others, just personal things that happened, which led me to realize, look, what what do I really want in life? I I just wanna be happy. I want and what makes me happy? Doing the things that give me a sense of meaning and purpose and just pursuing them. For the longest part of my life, I used money, a thought or rather thought of money as a proxy for happiness. Oh, yes. Let me just do this job because it's it pays me well. It yes. It's a it's for some evil corporation, but it's an amazing salary and,

40:11Avi Burra you know, it allows me to live the life, I want to live. And then but but that sense of meaning and purpose just is not there. So it's a it's a very humbling and simple realization that none of the stuff matters. What matters is is health and happiness.

40:31Avi Burra And and and with that comes the the need to do something that actually is meaningful, that that gives a sense of purpose. So maybe it maybe you could call it luck, Richard, but I stumbled into this realization. And and according to some,

40:49Avi Burra some people that that I respect such as yourself and others, what I produce is not pleb slop.

40:57Richard Greaser It's not even though you have pleb in the in the show name.

41:01Avi Burra That is true. That was a relic from a different era. We could talk about that if you want, but Absolutely. Yeah. What what's your perspective on, the term pleb

41:11Richard Greaser and the meaning of it? Yeah. So when

41:14Avi Burra it sort of ties back to what we're talking about with influencers and this this shallow platitudes that that get thrown out. Right? The the slop the slop before we even called it slop. And and there was a lot of this happening in,

41:29Avi Burra maybe four, five years ago, 2021, even 2020, right, the the wave of adoption that happened with the pandemic and and the influencers who grew to prominence with with things like Clubhouse and, all this other stuff. And and, you know, around when we this late twenty twenty two, early twenty three was when we were hashing,

41:54Avi Burra KW and I hashed the idea for the show, the early days of of Nostra. And even back then, right, so we're talking three years ago, the word pleb at at that time was a silent cry of rebellion saying, look, I'm not one of these people. Right? I'm

42:12Avi Burra I don't think I'm better than the people around me just because I have 20,000 followers on Twitter or whatever it is. I'm I'm here to participate in this, I guess, this movement, this revolution where that that that's supposed to break down these barriers and and be a classless, kind of thing. Right? So it it in some sense, it was a very earnest, taking to heart the phrase we are all Satoshi.

42:39Avi Burra I know that that's at this point, even that's probably pep slop. Right? But, but, yeah, it's it's so the the word pleb and then pleb chain that came out of that, was was that. It was just a rebellion against influencer culture.

42:56Avi Burra So that was back then. I think what's happened now is that, the term's gotten so muddied, especially in the last year, six even six months. I'll say six months to a year, that that it's it's lost its initial meaning. And a lot of people call themselves plebs when they all they want to do is yell and get into fights about things that that don't even make sense. Right? And we're seeing a lot of this with

43:25Avi Burra the knots versus core debate. I I I think there's there've been some incredibly bad faith arguments from both sides, which has led me to largely mute, most of Bitcoin Twitter. And thankfully, Nostra is not as polluted

43:42Avi Burra with that debate as it is. But but there are other sort of debates within the Bitcoin ecosystem that have devolved into shouting matches, bad faith arguments, and frankly, anti intellectual, conversations. And,

43:60Avi Burra and, unfortunately, the the word pleb has evolved to associate itself with all of that ugliness. So, yeah, at at this point, I'm happy to renounce the name the word pleb now. Unfortunately, it's it's in the name of the podcast. It is what it is. I think we just had to own it. But, but definitely, it it does not stand for the ethos that it did three or four years ago.

44:26Richard Greaser I'm not gonna cancel you for not changing the name.

44:30Avi Burra Well, thank you.

44:32Richard Greaser Yeah. The it's interesting to watch these cultures. So there there was a whole wave of marketing directed towards the clubs in these years. There was the, so, like, from your recollection,

44:47Richard Greaser who were the the biggest influencers that people were rebelling against?

44:52Avi Burra Well, I don't wanna get into singling out people, Richard. But I mean, there anyone can throw them who is around can throw their mind back to, I guess, late twenty twenty, early twenty twenty one when we had that sort of,

45:11Avi Burra the the bull market of of of that period. And, you know, there was well, we'll talk we could talk about the shitcoiners. Right? They they there was the Terra Luna stuff happening. SPF was all over Twitter. And, and then we, you know, we had, there there were Bitcoiners who, you know, was we they were supportive in some sense of what those people were doing or or certainly took a leaf out of the book

45:39Avi Burra of Do Kwon and and all these others. And, so yeah. Look. Any anyone who's in Bitcoin back then can you kinda piece it together. Right? There were there were a lot of influencers who were born in that in that bull market.

45:55Richard Greaser There's probably people like Nick Carter and Mike Alfred, Dennis Porter. Shout out to the goat. Hope bring Dennis home. Yeah. I'm trying to remember. I do I guess my my brain is kinda foggy.

46:17Richard Greaser But yeah. Yeah. I get what you're saying. Mhmm. Yeah. It's it's it's interesting. It's, it's just interesting to watch these cultural movements. And I think where we're at right now, they kinda go back to what we were talking about earlier about telling compelling stories is this this ecosystem that we're in is missing compelling stories. That that seems to be the the thing that's really lacking. Like, there was this

46:45Richard Greaser excitement around taking on the Federal Reserve.

46:50Avi Burra Mhmm.

46:50Richard Greaser And I think people started to come to the realization that the US government embracing Bitcoin and and using it in a lot of ways and not being super friendly and not, you know, really changing things so that it's easy to transact. It it meant that their idea of them buying Bitcoin on Swan or, you know, wherever, Raver, wasn't gonna be enough to end the Federal Reserve in the next three years. And Yeah.

47:22Richard Greaser They became discouraged as a result of that. And now now there's kind of like they're like, okay. This story that we bought into doesn't appear like it's happening in the timeline that we want it to. Mhmm. And there's general discouragement. And there hasn't really been a a compelling narrative or or story to get people excited that has filled that gap since then. No. Nothing that nothing that resonates

47:48Avi Burra with cypherpunk values, certainly. Right? We've had people have gotten or tried to get excited about the ETFs. When was that? That was about a year and a half, almost two years ago now. Right? Early twenty four. Obviously, the treasury companies

48:06Avi Burra that that came after that, and the institutional adoption that was supposed to to end the the four year cycles. So I think people tried getting excited about that. Some people are still pretending that they're excited about treasury companies and ETFs and

48:28Avi Burra and whatnot. But I I don't know how authentic these narratives are, and and maybe that's why they're failing. Right? Because this is it's it's, all of this the goal is NGU. It's not about reclaiming your sovereignty. Like, how does owning a treasury stock or an ETF, separate money from state, for instance, or allow you to be your own bank, or

48:56Avi Burra reclaim your privacy or your sovereignty in any way. It doesn't. So it really is about fiat gains, and NGU in fiat terms. And I I just that's not a compelling or authentic narrative. And that's why the stories

49:11Avi Burra feel like they're they're, tepid right now.

49:16Richard Greaser Yeah. Totally. Yeah. So you didn't get excited about paper Bitcoin summer.

49:24Avi Burra I like the meme. I thought it was funny. But no. That's, I mean, look, I I was at some of these conferences where, the the loudest cheerleaders for these things were actively telling people that,

49:40Avi Burra you know, Bitcoin and self custody was too confusing. It's just so much easier. All you're looking for is the exposure anyway. You know, loud voices, but loud and prominent voices, were were saying things like this. So, look, on the one hand, it's obviously, we can make a joke out of it and and laugh at, at at the double standard of the hypocrisy.

50:05Avi Burra But on the other hand, as as someone who actually cares about this revolution, someone I mean, I have a teenage son. I I want him to have a a brighter future than and and and, you know, aspire to something in his life, rather than debt and fiat slavery that

50:24Avi Burra that that could happen. Right? So when I when I hear, unconstructive, potentially even destructive, narrative arcs emerge around, you know, it's all about exposure. You you know, custody is too complicated and all of that stuff. Bitcoin doesn't it's just a store of value. It it doesn't you you don't need it as a currency. That,

50:47Avi Burra you know, that that bothers me, and and I don't like where things are going.

50:52Richard Greaser Absolutely. I think one one of the things that's really destructive about the samurai case is they found a way to make privacy profitable. And I think that's the

51:10Richard Greaser that's one of the keys And I know I know there's this, like, this attitude that they're trying to go and make money and offer things useful to the world, that there's something wrong with that, and that people should just, you know, do things for the greater good out of their, you know, to be selfless or whatever. But, you know, the reality is you get you got Michael Sailor who's selling a product, promoting a narrative. You got all these other individuals that are selling products,

51:40Richard Greaser promoting narrative. Like, when you when you have a product that a bunch of people wanna buy, you have you have a huge marketing budget and you can influence narratives. And, unfortunately, you know, a lot of the individuals that aren't selling product,

51:58Richard Greaser they don't they don't have the resources to really influence narratives. Like, they don't they don't have the ability to to buy a booth at a conference so that they can go speak on the main stage or get a keynote. Mhmm. They don't have the ability to sponsor podcasts and, you know, influence people that way. They don't they don't have the ability to really circulate, you know, their ideas. And, you know, the Silk Road was very interesting for this reason, you know, because it was a way that

52:30Richard Greaser somebody was able to or a bunch of people were may able to make a bunch of money, you know, using this technology and, in a in a way that promoted freedom and sovereignty. And I I think that's, like, one one of the challenges is how how do you marry those two things together without getting your head chopped off by the state? Or is there is there no way do you, like, do you do you have to step into danger and be noncompliant?

52:60Avi Burra Is that the only way? Oh, I think there's there's an in between part. But I think you might have touched on something that's that's pretty key here, Richard, which is, if you're building freedom tech tools and privacy tools, that are they're truly putting power and sovereignty back in the hands of individuals, and you're making money on top of it, I think you put you're you're painting a pretty big target on yourself. I think that's, that is very likely true. So we saw that with Silk Road. We saw that with Samurai, both cases that he just mentioned.

53:32Avi Burra So the so I think there is an in between path, which is, you look for patrons, the Jack Dorsey's of the world and and the others, modern day Medici, if you will, who will you know, you're you're not you're not making profit necessarily. They're giving you grants, and then you're building commons. Right? You're you're building free and open source software. The grant money makes sure that you can keep the lights on and put food food on the table, but that's about it. And then you're building free and open source software. Maybe that is the sly roundabout way. Right? We have the modern day Medici who are funding,

54:07Avi Burra free and open source software.

54:09Richard Greaser But don't don't those funders fall into the same the the same category. You you look at Jack Dorsey, and you look at how much attack surface area he has with how how limited he could be. Like, you know, all of his companies face regulation. Mhmm. They face scrutiny. The IRS

54:31Richard Greaser or any of these agencies could just be like, hey. We don't like what you're doing, so we're gonna, you know, put a boot on your neck, unless you you stop doing what you're doing.

54:44Avi Burra Yeah. But at least at least if if if we go with the argument that, you know, Ross was making money with Silk Road and the samurai devs were making money, then, in in the case of someone giving out grants, or someone receiving grants, they're really not making that much money. Right? So

55:09Avi Burra if that's what if that's the point that's under scrutiny, then, then I I think there maybe there's a way out. But but you're right. Right? I mean, the the I mean, Jack Dorsey is a massive single point of failure. Right? He's he's been incredibly generous in his, help for a lot of these free and open source projects.

55:30Avi Burra But, it but, yes, the government could come and shut it down.

55:36Richard Greaser Yeah. I think, you know, a a large part of it, it it comes with I I think there is an ability to tell a story so compelling that it breaks through, and I think that's the challenge. It's it's one of the things that I'm, I think both of us are on the path trying to do with our ideas. Because I think if if you inspire people in the right way,

56:04Richard Greaser like, you don't always need the same amount of resources and money to influence a narrative. Like, it's gonna take a a 100 times more effort or a thousand times more effort to convince people that that paper Bitcoin is a good idea than,

56:22Richard Greaser trying to limit how many, the the influence of the pedophilic ruling class over your life.

56:30Avi Burra Well, but baby stops, though. I I think I think you're right, Richard. Right? Clearly, we, we don't have the resources to buy the level of influence, to buy the space on or or the or the mind space, I should say, on podcast and, that have, you know, twenty,

56:49Avi Burra hundred thousand or even a million, listeners per per episode. Right? But some people clearly do, and they they're the ones who try and influence narratives. However, you can you can make incremental changes and

57:03Avi Burra and hope that that has a eventual compounding and snowball effect over over a decade or so.

57:12Richard Greaser Absolutely. I think Blockchain is a great road map for how to have a significant cultural influence. You you guys have been the, probably the single most influential cultural influence

57:30Richard Greaser in the Nostril ecosystem by far, I would say.

57:36Avi Burra Yeah. Well, that's we certainly try to be. I mean, our goal is not to be the most influential, but the goal is to move the needle on culture and and, you know, try and get these values to cypherpunk values, honestly. Right? To to permeate more broadly. And, I you know, I think three almost three years in, beginning to see early signs of success,

58:03Avi Burra but we'll see.

58:05Richard Greaser How how would you determine success? How how do you judge that?

58:09Avi Burra I think, you know, if you look at it through a cultural lens. Right? If there are, and and break break that down in into, let's just say, music, film, maybe writing and and a few other media. And and look at, peep people who've

58:32Avi Burra listened to our shows, who who then support value for value music, for instance. They're right. They they start and and how how can they how do they do that? They can either boost or zap their their favorite independent musicians, or they can actually go when they go to concerts to listen to their musicians or they have a network. Right? They can bring those people into the fold. Now these these are not easy conversations to have. Not all musicians or artists are ready to talk about Bitcoin, but some are. Right? And and so that that it

59:05Avi Burra as we see more of that happening, and we are we are seeing that. Right? Like, more musicians joining the fold, more people supporting independent musicians. So that's one. Right? And then similarly, writers who are migrating from Substack and moving to, you know, long form Nasr notes and, you know, getting small amounts of money for that. But or or people who, you know, who are Substack only now doing Substack and long form Nasr.

59:34Avi Burra That's another example. You know, we've been talking to some, independent video streaming services, and, you know, their audience is demanding that they become Nasdaq clients and start supporting that. So, we see small changes, and I guess that, to me, is a barometer for success. Earlier, it was just it felt like in our first year, it felt like, oh, we're just having a good time, but everything we say is going straight into the void.

1:00:04Avi Burra But these these things take time. Right? The the the seed takes a while to sprout into a tree.

1:00:11Richard Greaser Takes time to build momentum, for sure. Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, what are some of the things that get you most excited? Like, I think the this is one of the things that I think is important to focus on.

1:00:30Richard Greaser The influencers are being dumb. The plugs are being grumpy. The politicians are being awful. Like, what what's got you excited?

1:00:42Avi Burra I think people building FreedomTech, and I see a lot of that happening. Right? There are some, amazing new projects that are out there. People building web of trust open source web of trust tools

1:00:58Avi Burra on Nostra, to improve discoverability for any media, whether whether it's music, whether it's it's film, just notes, travel, whatever it is. I see that happening. I see a project like our friend, Shardrax, a a to b, right, which is being able to transport,

1:01:18Avi Burra packages, in a private and decentralized way using onion routed physical mailing. I I see, you know, hard with things like BitX, right, open source hardware. There's even now an open source,

1:01:36Avi Burra hard hardware wallet as well. Right? The the secure element specification has been open sourced as well. So there there are some amazing projects that are being built in the Nostraverse, in the Bitcoin ecosystem, in things like Cashew and and other adjacent, and and related ecosystems.

1:01:58Avi Burra FreedomTech, if you you could call it more more broadly. And I see that accelerating. So that that excites me.

1:02:06Richard Greaser Well, very cool. I mean, I'm excited. I think there's some interesting cultural influences. Scar Dust is exciting to me. Mhmm. Chris Cyborg being on Noster and and doing a a comic book. I thought that was really interesting.

1:02:28Richard Greaser I really wanna get my hands on that comic book.

1:02:32Avi Burra Can I ask you about Scott House? Because I I know we we've talked about it off the podcast. Both of us are huge fans of the band. Noah Gruen, probably one of the most amazing rock voices out there today. Can we get them to get off their label and, become independent?

1:02:52Avi Burra I think they like their label. Like but I don't know.

1:02:57Richard Greaser Yeah. I don't know. I'm not really personally, I'm not really a huge fan of, like, convincing people to change, for the sake of it. It's I I do really appreciate

1:03:10Richard Greaser the the involvement that they've they've had, the interest that they've had in, like, I'm I'm excited to see Noah have more like, when she gets back from her tour, I think she's gonna get a lot more involved in the ecosystem. Mhmm. And I did like, they

1:03:28Richard Greaser what what because they're they're a serious band. They're not they're not, like, a small time in the slightest. Like, they've had a tremendous amount of success, and they're going to have continue to have a tremendous amount of success. Like, the the things that they do

1:03:48Richard Greaser cost a ton of money. Like, you look at their their music videos that they do. Mhmm. It's like just a single music video that they do, you know, with the way that Lahav produces it. I I don't know what the cost is, but probably tens of thousands of dollars. Like, you've got Mhmm. In some of these shoots, they've got, I don't know, like, you know, probably up to 20 people involved with the production spending, you know, all day, if not multiple days. Like, when they're recording, their albums, their songs, their

1:04:20Richard Greaser like, Noah has the band there all day, you know, multiple days, but she's bringing a choir in, you know, other musicians to collaborate with. Like, it's it's a very expensive process. And, unfortunately, Waverlyte Boost and

1:04:39Richard Greaser Nostra's apps do not even remotely come close, to so so, I mean, like, sure. It would be an interesting and compelling story, you know, to tell somebody of, like you know, if you're a no name artist

1:04:56Richard Greaser trying to get your stuff out there and you're you're playing gigs for $50 a show, and you can do a Toonster stream and earn $500, like, that's exciting. That's really exciting. But for Mhmm.

1:05:16Richard Greaser Somebody like Scardos, like, I I think the only way to do it is kinda what you were talking about is, like, you need you need a patron to come in to essentially replace the label. It'd be like, okay. We want you to be exclusively on these platforms, but we're gonna pay all the money for you to do what you're gonna do, like the label would. And, I think if that happens, then you can convince people like that

1:05:45Richard Greaser to do it. But, yeah, it's, it's it's a hard sell. Like, it's really a hard sell. That is a good point.

1:05:56Avi Burra I I think the level of complexity and and I guess grandness, right, that goes into Skardos music is not something that you could

1:06:08Avi Burra zaps and boosts are not gonna cover that for sure. The 21 sat zaps and or even even the slightly more generous ones. So if there are any whales or patrons listening and you like complex, metal, prog metal, music, then do consider

1:06:28Avi Burra stepping in and making this real. We would love to have Scardust as an independent artist that's available on, all our favorite FreedomTech platforms.

1:06:39Richard Greaser Well, I I I think that's a strategy. It's not not even just for a band like Scardust. It's like, if you got relationship with musicians or something, you know, bands that you really like, bringing them into the ecosystem and and essentially doing what I was talking about, becoming their label of sorts, is is a huge thing. Because, like, why why does Spotify,

1:07:02Richard Greaser you know, really become the premier spot for podcasters? Because it it didn't always used to be that way or in in music. It it took over podcasting and music, and, like, a huge part of it was because they paid Joe Rogan a $100,000,000 to go exclusive on it. Like, they they got they essentially did that

1:07:23Richard Greaser where, you know, I'm pretty sure they brought other people on, exclusively on the platform too. You know, the brat drag the audience over there. Like, that that's how you do it, you know, in a lot of ways is you have to pay these people, to come there. So, you know, maybe we could, convince Matt Odell in 10/31, you know, or just, you know, somebody somebody like that. Like, you you yeah. There has to be

1:07:51Richard Greaser somebody with a following that, you know, there there's a reason for them to go over there. And, like, sometimes they'll make less money to do that. Like, there is a potential that Joe Rogan made less money going exclusively to Spotify. Like, the the deal eventually ended, and I I don't know what the details are, but the like, there that's that's kind of the process. I I think I think it's one of the jobs of, I think the podcasters

1:08:22Richard Greaser and and individuals influencing or engaging in the culture is to to also sell it you're you're way ahead on this process, with what you're doing with finding home because you're going through this process of of finding patrons to fund your project that you're putting a lot of time and effort into, which I it is expensive. There's travel. It's very high production quality.

1:08:48Richard Greaser A lot of thought process done in the editing. Very labor intensive. Mhmm. But I think, you know, I I know of other people that you know, people running, independent media companies, you know, that are that are trying to go through the process

1:09:07Richard Greaser themselves, you know, to to secure funding to be able to do the things that they want to. And I think that's a it's a it's a process that I I think creatives really struggle with in general, is securing that funding and and and selling themselves. Like, it, you know, because they're creatives. And usually creatives are they're kinda like devs where they're they're kinda retarded in in some ways and, at at least at communicating

1:09:37Richard Greaser to to different types of people and organizing information and tasks and and and things like that. Mhmm. But, yeah, it's, it's possible. I just think, like, the the mechanisms of the way the world actually works need to be, you know, looked at, you know, seriously. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, it'd be cool. I do I'm just so happy that Scar does. I think it's so cool that they're they're on Zapp stream twenty four seven. They're they're streaming on

1:10:08Richard Greaser Fountain. They're streaming on, and and, like, I think a a huge thing is, like, you know, for people that are listening that that want things to be more interesting, go engage with the people that are interested and get become loyal, loyal fans. Because what that shows, like, you know, you show up, you support these artists that are here, like Joe Martin. Joe Martin's pretty cool. Mhmm. You

1:10:37Richard Greaser other artists will see that, and they'll be attracted to that. And then those artists can then go talk to their friends. Like, you know, imagine if Scardust had become the darling of Nostra. Everybody freaked out. Wow. There's this there's this group that is incredibly talented, some of the best musicians in the world, if not the best. I think Noah's easily one of the best singers in the world. Yeah. And she she she's so multi

1:11:09Richard Greaser faceted in her talent. If Noster had lost their minds like they have, you know, for other people, Noah's on tour right now every night almost every night in front of tens of thousands of people.

1:11:26Avi Burra By the way, Richard, the first Bitcoiner to be in front of such large crowds. I I don't think too many people are realizing this. Who was the last Bitcoiner that you know who who's walked out onto the stage? Doesn't even have to be a performer or music a any Bitcoiner, even Michael Saylor, hasn't I don't think he's ever spoken to a crowd that large.

1:11:50Richard Greaser Phil Labonte of all that remains, but he's not, like, as engaged in the ecosystem. He doesn't listen to my podcast, like Stardust does for mine. But, yeah, I mean, there's there's really not that many. That absolutely.

1:12:07Richard Greaser Let's go with Jack Dorsey.

1:12:10Avi Burra Yeah. Maybe Jack. Yeah.

1:12:12Richard Greaser I mean, Jack Jack speaks at, like, his, this this is crazy. So he he has, like, company wide meetings where he brings tens of thousands of people into a stadium, flies them in from all over the world, and speaks in front of his company. Just his company,

1:12:31Avi Burra is tens of thousands of people. It's pretty wild. Yeah. But they have to be there, Richard. They haven't they haven't shown up voluntarily as they have for Noah's concerts.

1:12:41Richard Greaser Yeah. They yeah. They they didn't pay to do. They're getting paid. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. But yeah. I mean, like, you know, I think this is this is important, you know, for individuals that care about the ecosystem is to be able to identify the individuals that are really

1:13:01Richard Greaser skilled. You know? Because, like, Noah could be on tour right now being like, holy shit. I've amassed this huge engaged audience. All these musicians, she's she's hanging out with this, I forgot the the violinist name, but she has a following. She's hanging out with Patty Gertie.

1:13:20Richard Greaser They're hanging out doing Instagram videos every day. And, she she could be telling Patty Gertie and and the the violinist, that, Noster's the place to be. Mhmm. And, you know, this is why. Like, I've gotten paid thousands of dollars. It wasn't just Avi and and Richard boosting our stuff. And, and so I think this is, this is important for for people in the community to understand,

1:13:54Richard Greaser you know, how they can have influence. Part part of it is is is supporting, you know, people that are are doing things that are interesting. But, yeah, anyways, I'll get off my soapbox on that. But, yeah, it's,

1:14:11Avi Burra Well, I mean, I part of the reason why I I think you and I both know the answer to this, which is why did Scott does not have a massive reaction on Nostowaker as well? I mean, most people listen to slop. They don't I mean, you you the minute you introduce some complexity and, I mean, especially something like prog metal, prog rock or prog metal. It's just it's such a niche and in almost inaccessible

1:14:38Avi Burra genre. You you actually need to have something wrong with you like I do, to be to to to find it compelling.

1:14:48Richard Greaser I don't know. I mean, I I they they they put out a video. They put out a music video with featuring Satoshi Nakamoto.

1:14:54Avi Burra Fair enough.

1:14:55Richard Greaser Yeah. Yeah. Like, that should be enough. That should be enough. Can you imagine if they did that in the twenty twenty twenty one bull market? I don't know. Maybe maybe it's the timing. Yeah. I don't know. I don't it it it the the the lack of reaction is so fascinating to me. I haven't figured it out. I'm actually I I I'm very astounded, and I I am very disappointed.

1:15:23Avi Burra That is disappointing. I'm I I I, you know, that that video by itself probably, you're you're right, should have had a lot more eyeballs and interest. Having said that, look, it's it's it's inaccessible music. Right? I I love it, but I I think the music is somewhat inaccessible because of its complexity.

1:15:44Richard Greaser Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I I just all I see is skill, high production value, likes Bitcoin.

1:15:53Avi Burra Mhmm.

1:15:55Richard Greaser I mean, you you I've I figured the simps would show up for now, but not even the simps have showed up for I don't get it. Yeah. They're they're too busy, like, going after Lauren Huddle or, you know, whoever on Twitter. It's just it pulls me. But yeah. Anyways. Well, I know we're kinda coming up on

1:16:16Richard Greaser your, cutoff time. It's been a pleasure to have this conversation. I always enjoy, spending time chatting with you. You know? One of my my favorite times with you is hanging out, smoking I'm smoking cigarettes. You're smoking cigars. We'll have to do that again in the future.

1:16:35Richard Greaser One of the things that we do at the end of the show is we, we read all the the fountain boost from the previous episode that we did. Part of part of yeah. I mean, you already understand because I you you are very engaged in fountain and, in the fountain boost, but part of the reason why I like to do this is because I like to show my guests that we do get fountain boost, because people people need to see that custodial lightning works. But,

1:17:08Richard Greaser yeah, kinda wrap wrapping up before I go into this real quick, do you have a you have anything important that you wanna, you know, share? Any closing thoughts?

1:17:21Avi Burra Well, you know, look, it's it's it's always great chatting with you, Richard. Yes. Agreed. I think we are long overdue, a a smoke. Even though it's it's it was just a month and a half ago, it still feels long overdue. That was a good few days out in Nashville. Other than that, yeah, look, listen to Pleip Chain Radio. Try try and fly the

1:17:45Avi Burra flag, for for the values that we talked about, on the show. You can check out my books, July 18 and and the prequel, 24, available for purchase on Amazon.

1:18:00Avi Burra Finding Home is my show. It's available on IndieHub episode three. By the way, the episode two was edited by Noah who we've been talking about all this while, and and and, Lahav was the director of post production. He Noah obviously has been busy as we've discussed,

1:18:20Avi Burra but Lahav is the director of post production for episode three, which is which is filmed in Paraguay. That will come out sometime in early January. And then episode four, which I just wrapped up, filming, will be out early March, I think.

1:18:36Avi Burra But, yeah, that's that's what I have, Richard. Thank you for having me.

1:18:41Richard Greaser So do do you do you suggest reading the, original first

1:18:46Avi Burra or the prequote first? No. I would say yeah. The so '24, is the original. So that prop it probably makes sense to read that. Now, I will say, if if you're hearing this, just hold off until mid December. I'm about to release a second edition where I've done a bit of cleanup of, some of the language. So by '24 edition two will be out mid December, probably makes sense to start with that. You can start with July eighteen first, but there clearly, it's there are a lot of spoilers for '24 in there. So

1:19:19Avi Burra if you really want to do it the right way, twenty four first and then July 18, which picks up where it left off.

1:19:27Richard Greaser Very cool. I'm I'm actually gonna read the fountain boost after, you hop off. I'm just gonna monologue it, but because I don't I don't need to show you that custodial lightning works you already know.

1:19:39Avi Burra Oh, so what what is la I I see Lahav when you shared the screen. He said something in Hebrew. What is the translation?

1:19:47Richard Greaser Yeah. I I actually translated earlier. Wahav, we don't speak Jew. You gotta you gotta speak in, in English, but, you were awesome Bubba and awesome Bugle, super intelligent conversation,

1:20:04Richard Greaser hashtag forty hours per week.

1:20:07Avi Burra It looks a lot better written, right to left. I'm assuming that's right to left.

1:20:14Richard Greaser I yeah. I guess you're right. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. I guess you keep on leaving, found a place in Hebrew, everybody's gonna think you're a mess on. But, like, this guy's gonna blow up our hardware walls. Watch out.

1:20:35Richard Greaser But a great guy. I like Lahav a lot. He's just like

1:20:43Avi Burra He's a good man.

1:20:45Richard Greaser He's another guy that I think needs, you know, would benefit from a lot of people engaging with. Like, he he's the guy that is really excited about Noster. So he does all of, Scardust music videos. And he is,

1:21:03Richard Greaser in my opinion, easily one of the best video producers in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

1:21:12Avi Burra Mhmm. Yeah. I well, I second that. I've I've I've I've I've witnessed his work firsthand on finding home. And he's absolute master at it. Also doing a lot of vibe nostring, if I'm not mistaken. He's I think that the whole twenty four hour stream and I think he's looking into self hosting his app dot stream as well. So,

1:21:36Avi Burra bit of a tinkerer on that front as well.

1:21:41Richard Greaser Yeah. I mean, it's awesome. It's it's awesome. Like, I think it's a it's just you know, when it when I find these individuals that are that are interested like this, that are doing interesting things, I get excited. And I I I just, it's, it's fun to watch. It's it's fun it's it's it really is cool to see. Mhmm. But

1:22:05Richard Greaser makes me happy that Lahav listens to my podcast. But, oh, yeah, Avi, I I really appreciate you coming on. Got a tremendous amount of respect for you. You you've been waiting through the bad. You actually have way more tolerance for it than I do.

1:22:23Avi Burra Yeah. Appreciate you having me. And looking forward to catching up whenever it is next time.

1:22:33Richard Greaser I'll have to be soon.

1:22:35Avi Burra Yes.

1:22:37Richard Greaser Alright, folks. Back to the fountain boost. Big thank you to Avi for coming on. We already read Lahav's, boost. But, yeah, fundamentals, 10,101 says, Bubba's a national treasure. ISR podcast is two for two with getting great guest performances.

1:22:54Richard Greaser Well, I think we're three for three at this point with Avi, but, yeah, appreciate it, fundamentals. Baba truly is a national treasure. What a guy. What a great guy. He just put out, another two Angry Cuts podcast, which I gotta listen to. Him and Sylvie talking about tuning out the noise. Fundamentals is, working for an audiobook. You're like

1:23:20Richard Greaser I if you if you're writing a book for this ecosystem, I think it's really important to to write to do the audiobook right off the bat because, like, you're you're writing books for podcast listeners is is how people, communicate information. So I I am just getting I'm getting the word out there. I'm I'm hassling everybody

1:23:39Richard Greaser about it that's writing books. Get the audiobook out. Release it around the same time. Because, like, you get all this momentum going around the book, around the launch. Right? You do your announcement. You announce your book. And then there's all these people are like, well, you know, I I just I consume information for via audio. Like, I'm gonna listen to you talk about the book on the podcast. Like, they they much more likely to go through your book and hear what you have to say that this thing that you put all all this time into if you did the audiobook.

1:24:12Richard Greaser And there's ways to do it. But, yeah. Anyways, I'm gonna keep on the hassle. If you don't have an audiobook, I'm coming after you. Make the audiobook. Podcast listeners need it.

1:24:28Richard Greaser Next page, Lee Stays Huddl, 6,006 sats. Says, another podcast with three friends I've hugged. My Bitcoin podcast UI continues to improve. Love you, Bubba, and Bugle Boys. My dad lived in a trailer park too when he was younger. Probably why he's better than a better man than me. Also, after you didn't read my last boost for the intellectual Silk Road, I see that it posted without any sats.

1:24:56Richard Greaser Those are now sats lost to the ether of bad UX on fountain. Hope these make it to your PodConf approved custodial lightning wallet. Well, looks like they made it. Apologies on missing the boost. That's a bummer. I if your dad, late stage Huddl, is a better man than you, I I can't even begin to imagine how great he is because you're pretty cool, dude. Looking forward to hugging you again in the future.

1:25:25Richard Greaser Baba five thousand says, thanks fellas. That was fun. It is all about the tits. Oh, yeah. That was that was a major point of this conversation. I was talking about tits. I think this is where, you know, Rod coined the term pep slop tits, and I had a little bit of conniption because I I just didn't understand what he's talking about. I'm a huge fan of tits. Tits matter. She appreciate tits. Skate Kate, KT.

1:25:54Richard Greaser I think I've met you. I'm not sure. But, skate Kate. Her her bio and Oscar, snowboarder, tavern owner, clean food advocate, Bitcoin podcast listener, lover of sarcasm. Sounds like a true pioneer to me. 2,300 says, yes, Richard. All tits do matter, but Rod is right on this one. Some are just better than others. I don't understand what you don't understand about Pub Slot milkers. The conversation, along with using baby oil and k y jelly as minor immersion fluids,

1:26:27Richard Greaser proves that Bubba is in fact innocent, and he is also correct. Tits and Bitcoin are big supporters of good tits. Great closing song too. I forgot what we did. I think we did one of Bubba's songs for the closing. I'm not sure. I don't remember. But, yeah. Get tits recognize tits. I think I think that's the message that Skate Kate has to say.

1:26:53Richard Greaser And, that's a good message. Two Angry Cunts podcast, 2222 says, electrolyte, the tits, save the world. That's Sylvie. Go check out the Two Angry Cunts podcast.

1:27:11Richard Greaser Two of the funniest, most interesting boomers in the world. I'm not sure, Sylvia might be Gen x. I don't know. But in your in our eyes, Sylvia, you're still a boomer because you're hanging out with Bubba doing a podcast, talking about boomer things. A lot of a lot of gen xers, they they act like boomers. To to the younger generations of people, it just all seems the same. But

1:27:39Richard Greaser either way, we still appreciate it. You're you're the you're the hope for the world. You're you're you're shining example that the broccoli haircuts shouldn't, hate all the boomers. Shadrach, 963 says, thank you guys. Great rip. Shout out to Shranrack.

1:27:58Richard Greaser Great guy. Knockas, 800 eight SaaS says, liking the ISR format, good entropy for the 40 HPW. Well, thank you, Knockas. Sasha Hodder, five hundred SaaS says, innocent. Gardas, four hundred twenty stats says, this episode made me chuckle. Keep up the good work. News and guidance, three hundred thirty three stats says, keep going. Great source of high entropy human content.

1:28:24Richard Greaser Well, thank you. Got some boosters I've never seen before. God's death. Two hundred thirty seven sads says, thank you, gentlemen. Oh, you're welcome. B t c on board, l enhanced or CTV. A hundred sads says, three thumbs up emoji. Well, guys, thank you. I enjoyed this episode with Avi a lot. I I I get excited when people are

1:28:52Richard Greaser getting creative and trying new things. And Avi Avi is getting creative and trying new things. So definitely check out his finding home series. I think right after I hit the the stop button on this recording, I'm going to go over and watch episode one, which I've missed. He said episode three is coming out soon. I didn't even ask him where where it was. But, yeah. I mean, it's a it's a Bitcoin travel show. Like, we know that Joe Nakamoto is trying to do this, but Joe Nakamoto sucks. Like, he's eating he's eating penis cakes to get views on YouTube. Like, Avi doesn't do that.

1:29:27Richard Greaser And, you know, what's also cool about the story is, you know, the individuals that he has evolved at that. Like, episode two, the one that I watched, he had, Neil Groom and edited it, which is super cool. She's the best. But, yeah, anyways, thank you guys for listening to this episode, and catch you soon. Yeah.

1:29:47Unknown Is it cash alert? Seasonal depression wrapped in tinsel, baby. Broccoli haircut on fleek. Merry crisis. Happy New Year. Let's go. Grandma says smile more. It's Christmas, but my soul's on dial up stuck with the glitches. Everyone flexing their gifts in the pictures. I'm just trying to figure out if joy still exists. Amazon boxes on a floor like snow. Dad's yelling about Fiat, why the lights won't glow. He keeps saying Bitcoin fixes this, you know. But the price chart looking like a

1:30:60Unknown light now doing dances for clout yelling run it up, wow. This whole holiday feels like a rug pulled clown, even Rudolph trying to shield coins to the town. And the blabs keep saying that fate just huddle. But I'm zipping

1:31:54Unknown bro. Candy can't change, swing it low. Brackney fades sharper than sailors. POMO, Christmas cheer men. I don't even owe. Feels like another badge, I loaned for my soul. So here's to the pledge, the charge, cards, the code, the gifting each other that last down so because Bitcoin might fix the world, I suppose. But it still ain't fixed my seasonal loan. Mary Brock