0:01Richard Greaser Some historians credit coffee with kicking off the enlightenment. America was built by coffee drinkers. Coffee has played a role in radically changing the world for the better. The greatest intellectuals, writers, and thinkers like to mix coffee with their cigarettes. But in modern days, there's been an attack on this revolutionary

0:22Richard Greaser being. The wokes are taking it over, Infiltrating every good coffee house in America is an angry looking lesbian. White suburban women are demanding more cream and sugar than coffee in their drinks and the culture around it has shifted towards soft tops instead of straight black nectar of the gods.

0:44Richard Greaser But the pumpkin spice drinking soccer moms have not completely destroyed intellectualism. Joining us tonight is a Renaissance man, a plumber, an electrician, a coffee roaster, a musician, a Bitcoin podcaster,

0:60Richard Greaser father and husband. Looking like a paper Bitcoin company cobbler joining us tonight, Otis Bittmeyer. You did an incredible job at Lake Satoshi with your coffee shop next to your boss. How are you doing tonight? Great.

1:19Otis Bittmeyer Real good. Thanks for having me. What's it like running

1:24Rod Palmer a coffee shop, on the on the Bitcoin standard? You live a little bit of an alternative lifestyle. You kinda like, Richard said, you look like I don't I I wouldn't say you look like a cobbler. I just would say that you look like somebody who's friends with a cobbler. And so but more importantly,

1:48Rod Palmer somebody who, serves coffee to cobblers and to homesteaders and to plaids and to ungovernable misfits, to AI musicians,

2:01Rod Palmer to guys like Bubba. What what is it like running a a coffee shop on Nostra?

2:10Otis Bittmeyer You know, it's I'd say it's a lot more fun than running a shop, a coffee shop on Fiat. Lake Satoshi was just

2:26Otis Bittmeyer really okay. So when I when I closed when when we closed our coffee shops, I was tired. I was tired of running, like,

2:37Otis Bittmeyer working more more hours per week than I wanted to. And it felt like for the if as long as I wanted to stay in that industry, it was gonna require more than I wanted to give just to keep the lights on and and

2:55Otis Bittmeyer get by. You know? And so I decided it just wasn't worth it to me to to give my life to that type of extractive arrangement.

3:08Otis Bittmeyer And it felt like Lake Satoshi was a way what was kind of the first iteration for me to try doing it a different way and pay really close attention to where is my energy being returned to me,

3:25Otis Bittmeyer where where am I able to give in a way that is that I'm excited to give. And it was super fun to just get to show up and share coffee with people while essentially hanging out at the same time.

3:45Otis Bittmeyer So I'm not sure where it goes from there, but I feel like we I learned some things Yeah. Like Satoshi that I'm excited to to dig deeper

3:57Rod Palmer into. You did you didn't it sounds to me like you didn't want to just serve people coffee. You wanted to participate in the experience of your coffee shop with your customers. It wasn't you didn't just want to be the person serving it. You wanted to be there to enjoy it with them, in a, you know, a this is, you know, I say this

4:21Rod Palmer seriously, a thermodynamically sound way.

4:24Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. Yeah. For sure. You know what? I mean, it was tiring. It was a lot of work, and it took

4:37Otis Bittmeyer it took, you know, some some planning and it took some intention to make it happen. But I kind of view what I did as setting the stage or maybe providing the canvas, and then we're all just there painting on the canvas together. Or if you wanna go back to my stage analogy, we're all there creating the play together.

5:03Otis Bittmeyer And that feels way better to me than, you know, someone coming in were separated by a counter, and their expectation is that I essentially am their servant and get them their thing as quickly as possible. And in exchange,

5:21Otis Bittmeyer they'll give me some money, and that's supposed to be satisfactory arrangement. It's not. It's not for me anymore, and I think

5:33Otis Bittmeyer it's not for a lot of people even if they don't realize it yet. That sort of exchange is just not gonna cut it moving forward, I don't think. And

5:44Rod Palmer last thing, about this for me is that it sounds like you didn't want people to, come to your coffee shop just because it was convenient. That's the coffee shop nearby. It's the quickest, whatever. You wanted people to, like, get on a plane with their daughters and fly across the country and then, like, miss a flight and then still get up the next day and and make the connecting flight and then order a trailer and drive a couple hours into the forest

6:14Rod Palmer to get your coffee because it's that good. Like, people will fly across the country just to get a chance to talk about Bitcoin or anything, really. It owes my it Meijer's Coffee Shop.

6:28Otis Bittmeyer Well, yeah. I mean, totally. That's that's exactly what I want because I know that those people wanna be there. And I know that if they wanna be there that badly, they're invested in making it a good time as well.

6:43Rod Palmer So, yeah, you're absolutely right. And they have to listen to your, your podcast stories or your orange piddling theories because they drill all the way to air. It's like driving out to the outlet mall. You gotta stick around and check out the deals. Right? Like, it's they're gonna listen to your theories. Yeah. And and I I have to listen to theirs as well,

7:06Otis Bittmeyer but I'm happy to do it.

7:09Richard Greaser Because Gotta listen to Carl explain the six forms of capital. Yeah.

7:14Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. As many times as it takes for it to

7:18Richard Greaser to seep into my brain, for sure. So yeah. So, like, tell tell us about running a coffee shop back in the day. You know, you're slaving away. I think you and I had similar experiences. You know, my experience was with the media, you know, where I felt like it was soul sucking and I I quit to leave, do something else. And it radically improved my life. It sounds like you've done the same with, closing down your coffee shop.

7:45Richard Greaser So did you, like, employ people? Did you have to employ these angry lesbian ladies with a bunch of tattoos or, what what was the structure of the coffee shop like?

7:58Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. So we we did structure it so that we had to employ people. And, we definitely got some of that angry energy that,

8:11Otis Bittmeyer I'll say I mean, it it happened under my watch. So, ultimately, it was my responsibility to weed it out, but I didn't. At the time, I I kind of I hadn't fully realized how toxic

8:27Otis Bittmeyer that mentality was, And, I let it go

8:36Otis Bittmeyer for far too long and ended up I wouldn't I wouldn't say it ruined our company, but it significantly like, that that mentality of, outrage and, essentially,

8:49Otis Bittmeyer it it seems to me requiring everyone else to solve your problems and, like, you just getting to sit back and poke fingers at people. Like, that was a that was something that was a real challenge,

9:08Otis Bittmeyer you know, from our employees anyway. Like, that that mentality where we I get to blame the boss. You know? The boss is always wrong.

9:21Rod Palmer That, it's it's very common if you look into the drama. Because there's always, like, little dramas between coffee shops and their employees. There a lot of times it's these coffee shops who they claim it's like a group chat or a a spaces in Bitcoin where it's like the they seem to agree on the most things or it's like the most esoteric little meme gang, communist meme gang,

9:48Rod Palmer but they get in the biggest fights and biggest quarrels and they end up having to shut their co op coffee shop down because the employees are in the mindset, and it's not just coffee shops but it's definitely in coffee shops too that the employees feel like they're being exploited by the employer. It's a it it's Right. Whether it's an exploitative, relationship or not, the tone, especially in a corporate like Starbucks or something, but even everywhere, it's

10:18Rod Palmer is my boss exploiting me? And it's, like, pretty incongruent with what a coffee shop experience is supposed to be is not the foundation of it being exploitative.

10:30Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. Precisely. So, you know, before I owned a coffee shop, I worked, in a roastery as an employee. And one of the reason or one of the visions that I had or that Jubilee and I had when we started

10:48Otis Bittmeyer our shops was we wanna try to do it differently. We wanna try to treat our employees better. Well, I didn't realize that we're still within this exploitive system

11:04Otis Bittmeyer of fiat, that it doesn't really matter whether you're an owner, whether you're an employee, whether you're a landlord. Everybody's getting squeezed. And so I I felt like I had played enough roles within the system by the time I was an owner that I could kind of see, oh, wait.

11:26Otis Bittmeyer The employees are just feeling like they're being exploited by me, the owner. As an employee, I felt like I was being exploited by the owner. And then as an owner, I felt like I was kind of being exploited by the employees in a way, or at least certainly beholden to them in ways that didn't feel like it was in my best interests as,

11:52Otis Bittmeyer like, personally and for the good of the business. And so that was kind of around when COVID started that all of this started coming together for me, and COVID just was a clarifier where I was like, there's no win here for any of us within this system. We can't. Like, it just it is whether it's by design or whether it's just the way it happened, the system essentially

12:19Otis Bittmeyer breeds and nurtures this kind of division. And I'm just I'm not gonna participate in shit like that anymore.

12:28Rod Palmer It boils down to I'm not gonna build my coffee shop on a foundation of fiat. I gotta Right. I gotta build my my wife on a stronger foundation. This one is you can't fix it.

12:41Otis Bittmeyer Right. Going back to our, you know, our church background, there's that don't build your house on the sand. I definitely feel like that was pertinent in this situation. Just felt like I was keeping on trying to build

13:00Otis Bittmeyer something on sand that was current constantly shifting, you know, like, we had COVID going on, and then we had Black Lives Matter. And I remember being in the midst of a employee meeting where I'm, like, I'm coming to this meeting. Like, we just spent a couple months shut down because of all of the, you know, all of the stuff going on with COVID. And we're just getting back, getting our feet under us, and I'm, like,

13:27Otis Bittmeyer thinking, okay. Let's be strategizing how we can make this make this thing work. And my employees are all bent out of shape about Black Lives Matter and are, like, urging me to start a nonprofit. And I'm like,

13:47Otis Bittmeyer guys, do you want a job, or do you wanna, you know, like, we're there's there's more going on here than than this, this storm that's currently raging right outside, you know, the the Black Lives Matter storm. Well, coffee culture is really interesting. So coffee is

14:11Richard Greaser incredibly important in The United States. Yeah. I don't know what the percentage of people that drink coffee is, but it's probably well over 50%, probably daily. But there's a there's a huge split in the dynamics between different types of coffee drinkers. So, like, there's, like, when you think about the working class American, you think of people, like, they're they're drinking, like, gas station coffee. They're going through the drive through in the morning to get their black coffee from the the lady in the bikini. You know, that that's the thing that I learned about recently. I don't know if you knew this, but

14:46Richard Greaser if the, the bikini coffee drive thrus, they're drinking Folgers. They're drinking, you know, just, you know, what whatever. Just kind of trash coffee. You know what I mean? And then you've got

15:02Richard Greaser the intellectual, like, college educated left that's drinking like, a lot of I would say, like, a lot of the middle class educated, individuals, they'll do, like, drip coffee at home or something along the lines of that. But then you you talk about the

15:21Richard Greaser the leftist like, it started in Seattle. Like, I I think it really started in Seattle where Seattle is, like, the capital of coffee in The United States, as far as I can tell, which is one of the most Looney Tunes leftist, areas

15:39Richard Greaser like Pinochet might have invaded The United States over it. It was it's so bad, but he couldn't resist throwing those guys out of helicopters. But,

15:49Rod Palmer Then we would let them. And we would let them. It it'd be a favor to everybody.

15:55Richard Greaser But, but, like, the the type of coffee shop that I imagine that you were running, you know, where it was kinda hipster ish in a sense is how I would describe it, where it's not just like a chain. You're you're doing different types of brews. You probably have, like, an Ethiopian, blend of coffee and, you know, a Colombian blend, and, like, people can choose which blend they want over they eat is it a pour over or is it that pour? It's that's all dominated by leftists. Like, you the the per the people that, like, work at those, like, want either or from Seattle or wanna be from Seattle. Yeah. I think, you know, since I've been out of

16:39Otis Bittmeyer the, I guess, the mainstream third wave coffee scene now for a few few years. So are you familiar with the terms the the term third wave? So, like, third wave feminism? I have no idea. Could be. So first wave was kinda like Folgers, that kinda like coffee out of a can when coffee became

17:07Otis Bittmeyer kind of accessible to the common man here in The United States.

17:14Richard Greaser What what years when the were were the

17:18Otis Bittmeyer That's a good question. I I can't tell you specifically. I I wanna say, like, post World War two, maybe.

17:30Rod Palmer But I could be wrong with that. Prior to World War two, coffee was a delicacy for kings in presidents, and then it became he gets some, some Folgers

17:39Otis Bittmeyer in a can. That's kinda my perception.

17:43Rod Palmer Gotcha. Okay.

17:45Otis Bittmeyer So second wave then was when, like, Pete's and and Starbucks came up, and they kind of made, a higher higher grade coffee and all of these more, you know, like, the the lattes and that type of experience.

18:05Otis Bittmeyer So first wave wouldn't have been wouldn't have included much espresso. Second wave was when espresso kind of started to become more popular here, and, Starbucks was a big part of that. And then third wave

18:20Otis Bittmeyer was a response to the second wave from people who wanted to experiment with lighter roasts and really, highlighting

18:36Otis Bittmeyer the terroir of individual beans as well as, renewed focus on sourcing relationally, sourcing, like, fair trade, that sort of thing.

18:51Otis Bittmeyer And whether it was, like, what you know, like, there was a lot of focus on how how we treat the farmer, what what the farmer gets paid, that sort of thing. And I don't know if there's a relationship or a correlation there between

19:09Rod Palmer What those so my question Yes. Is my question, why is it so pre or why is it so specific to coffee where everybody

19:22Rod Palmer is questioning or look trying to look out for everybody else in the supply chain's best interest for the you're a why do nobody seems to trust or, feel good about everybody just following their own incentives. It seems like everybody's worried about exploiting each other in the coffee industry, whether it's the farmers, the employees, the shop owners, the managers,

19:46Rod Palmer the, you know, exporters, importers. Why is everybody just not focused on their own incentives and just serve coffee?

19:57Otis Bittmeyer You know, that's an interesting question. And so I I've been talking to the importer that I work with, about things like this. A lot of

20:12Otis Bittmeyer what sets the price of the green beans that I get is the commodities market. Even in specialty coffee where, like, my importer is paying significantly more than the sea market price,

20:28Otis Bittmeyer she's still when she's talking to the farmers that she's working with, she's still that, like, that's the the c market is still in their mind as, like, kind of the the standard for coffee, what coffee should cost.

20:44Otis Bittmeyer And so they're still basing their pricing on c market plus instead of I would think what the logical thing that the farmers would do is they would look at their input costs, and then they would decide what amount they of profit they need to make on top of that, and then that's what they would charge for their coffee. And,

21:07Otis Bittmeyer like, my importer seems willing to pay whatever it is that the the farmers need to charge for their coffee.

21:18Otis Bittmeyer But for some reason, the sea market still seems to loom large in a lot of farmers' decision making processes. So I don't know. Maybe we're in this period where we are starting we'll we'll start to be able to affect some change there and be like, no. Farmers, just charge what it is that you need to charge to make it worth your time, and we'll pay it.

21:42Rod Palmer I don't know. That's it's it's, I don't know. It just seems like there's a lot more to this whole coffee industry,

21:57Rod Palmer the coffee as a service, coffee as a commodity, as a cultural, staple, as a stimulant, as a drug, as a there's a pathology to this coffee thing, and it is there a do they just need more bit like, coffee podcasts

22:19Rod Palmer so people can get kinda drill down to what is so deep about this coffee rabbit hole. It's like it it seems like something that's perfect for Bitcoin to fix. Like, it's got, Bitcoin's gonna fix the coffee industry.

22:35Rod Palmer So the farmers and the blue haired, you know, lesbians will stop bickering

22:41Otis Bittmeyer and just do their jobs. Yeah. I mean, I hope I hope that works. Yeah. I I do think Bitcoin could be really helpful in just something as simple as payments, like streamlining payments, making it really easy for, payment to get to these small farmers. But it takes time, and a lot of them are really,

23:07Otis Bittmeyer not super ready to take risk and try new things because they're already kinda living on a knife's edge as far as,

23:18Rod Palmer they're not ready to be node runners.

23:20Otis Bittmeyer They're not ready to be node runners, I guess. Yeah. So are the the farmers

23:25Richard Greaser they're they're not charging enough is what you're saying they should charge more?

23:29Otis Bittmeyer I don't know. It it's hard for me to tell because when I hear somebody making decisions based on what a commodities market is doing, that is confusing to me because I would think, like, as a human being who's trying to grow coffee, if I was trying to grow coffee as a farmer, I would be looking at my input costs. I'd be looking at the amount of time it takes me to do this and, like,

23:55Otis Bittmeyer what I want to be making to make it worth my time, and then I'd be pricing accordingly. But it seems like, for some reason, the c market still

24:09Otis Bittmeyer still, is is a is a something that people look at or that farmers look at a lot as far as a a source of

24:23Otis Bittmeyer kind of sorry. I'm struggling for words here. But the the farmers are seem to be putting a lot of weight in the sea market for what they should be charging, and I just don't it doesn't make sense to me. I don't quite understand why you would look outside of yourself and outside of your farm for guidance on how to price your products. It's a price signal, and it's a global market is probably what they're thinking. Right. But it it I mean, we see this in farms here where, like, the c market price

24:57Otis Bittmeyer at times has is decoupled from the actual cost of production. And then other times, like right now with with cattle, the market is ridiculous. And so people are are actually incentivized to sell off their herds because

25:17Otis Bittmeyer the the market is extremely high. But that's not in the best interest of us over the long term. Like, collectively, it's not in the best interest of humans to, have all of this volatility,

25:33Rod Palmer I don't think. Yeah. That's interesting. I so one thing that what it's kinda a shift focus here. I guess my question is we were talking before the show about music,

25:49Rod Palmer and we keep probably go on this topic of music and and technology is kind of like merging with the ability to produce and distribute this music. What kind what kind of music do you play at a coffee shop that's, like, as,

26:07Rod Palmer unique as your own and in many different contexts with many different vibes of crowds, how important is music

26:18Otis Bittmeyer to the coffee shop? Oh, I think music's very important. Nobody wants to walk into a coffee shop where the music isn't playing or it's just silent, and nobody wants to walk into a coffee shop where the music is not supporting the vibe that's going on. So I think I mean, to me, it just depends. The the the kind of music that I like to have in a shop depends

26:47Otis Bittmeyer on the time of day, depends on the the number of people in the shop, depends on what the people are in the shop to do. If it's a business meeting, it might be it's gonna be different than if it's, I don't know, a bachelorette party.

27:09Rod Palmer What if, what if what if a broccoli haircut shows up and starts playing Wonderwall

27:15Otis Bittmeyer by Oasis, and you're is that allowed? It again, it depends on the time of day. I'd say maybe maybe around two in the afternoon. That probably feel about right, when when the shop is mostly empty. But a few people that are there, I think, would appreciate that. That's my thought. I mean, do you guys have thoughts on that?

27:34Richard Greaser Were were you the DJ or were your employees the DJ?

27:39Otis Bittmeyer We we gave discretion to whoever was working to curate the their own tunes.

27:47Richard Greaser There there was a coffee shop I used to frequent that, would play metal music. And I like that a lot, but that was really unique. But, like, were there any songs that you would consider a fireable offense? Like, if they were playing Margaritaville? Like, it just crosses the vibe. Like, this boomer slob is not allowed.

28:10Otis Bittmeyer You know, I'm trying to think of when Margaritaville would be appropriate. I'm sure there'd be a time.

28:17Richard Greaser I would say coffee shop if you had a coffee shop in a casino or on, like, a a cruise ship, that'd be Oh, absolutely.

28:25Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. Yeah. I think this this is just my personal my personal opinion. I

28:35Otis Bittmeyer am not a fan of, like, screaming, screamo, or, like, I guess, in general, like, super intense music at a coffee shop. So, like,

28:49Rod Palmer EDM. You look you look like you might prefer the Lumineers or, what's the other one? The,

29:02Richard Greaser Of Mice and

29:03Rod Palmer Men. Of Mice and Men. Yes. Or Alabama, Arkansas. I do love my Ma and Pa. Are you into that? Like, the the folk music? Oh, yeah. What about Bob Dylan? What about Wagon Wheel? Wagon Wheel,

29:19Otis Bittmeyer one of my daughters, we listened to Wagon Wheel every night for maybe a couple years, putting one of my daughters to bed. So,

29:31Rod Palmer Wagon Wheel has a special place in my heart. Definitely. And your and your and your wife is named after a Lumineers album. Am I right? Is that correct? Or am I confusing that? Yes. That's correct. Yeah.

29:44Otis Bittmeyer That's so good. Yeah.

29:46Rod Palmer Yeah. So that mean, that sounds like, this sounds like a a sitcom. You you could also you could have a sitcom coffee shop. You know? It's like the Lumineers coffee shop. The, but it to be more serious,

30:05Rod Palmer what is it how do you find customers and convince them to fly across the country to try your coffee and to come to your coffee shop? How do how do they what's the marketing like for that? What is the outreach? How how does one succeed

30:26Otis Bittmeyer in that business model? Well, I don't know how one succeeds. I'm still figuring that out. But, I do not have any interest in trying to convince people to buy my coffee. So here here here's how I view it.

30:44Otis Bittmeyer I roast the coffee that I enjoy drinking, and I share it with my friends. And I'm looking for more friends to enjoy it with. But

30:57Otis Bittmeyer whatever that number whatever the Dunbar's number of friends is that will enjoy my coffee with me, I don't know. But beyond that, you know, it's kinda take it or leave it. If you wanna come and enjoy the coffee with us, you're welcome. And if it's not for you, then it's not for you.

31:22Otis Bittmeyer But I'm not trying to convince anyone that they should drink my coffee because that I mean, that this just it's it's not where I wanna spend my energy. I've got plenty of other things that I wanna do with my time, and so it's kinda like I'll roast coffee,

31:42Otis Bittmeyer up to a point for as many hours a month as there is interest. And then the rest of the month, I have freedom to do to pursue other interests, if that makes sense. Yeah. Makes sense. So so I guess my

31:59Otis Bittmeyer advertising wise, it's like, it's the fans. It's the people that enjoy the coffee that do the advertising. So, like, early on, it was Carl. I mean, it's still Carl, fundamentals. But, like, Carl was

32:16Otis Bittmeyer one of my first he was my first, customer, if you will. And Ian has introduced my coffee to numerous other folks. Fundamentals

32:28Otis Bittmeyer was another early adopter, and he's been a tremendous ally and spread the word. So it's like, you know, just find find your fans and let them do the marketing for for you is my approach. You

32:45Richard Greaser Your marketing style is by harnessing social capital.

32:51Rod Palmer Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

32:54Richard Greaser So, would that make you a social capitalist?

33:01Rod Palmer Yeah. Yeah. Sure. That's a new boy. That's a new yeah. That's an that is a new that's of, like, a new podcast genre. Social capitalism.

33:11Otis Bittmeyer I might put that on my business card. Social

33:15Richard Greaser capitalists. I can't I can't wait till the, like, the new wave of communists are coming after the social capitalists. Like, you can't have friends. You can't have friends that are podcasters that talk about your coffee. It's a exploited it.

33:30Rod Palmer You talked you talked about you're like, alright. I will roast, for as many hours a month is there as interest, and then I get to move on to other things. So what what are those other things? Who is the person or the interests, of the coffee guy Otis Bittmeyer? Besides coffee.

33:53Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. So I'm really interested in permaculture and centering my life in such a way that,

34:07Otis Bittmeyer what I do is is productive in multiple ways. So, like homesteading and developing, like, building land to

34:24Otis Bittmeyer over time produce a yield that requires less and less input from me is something that I'm really interested in. So that that's all a very low time preference

34:41Otis Bittmeyer endeavor, and, it just looks like a lot of spending time on land and slowly over time

34:55Otis Bittmeyer discovering what wants to happen there. So it's a very, kind of it's a process that that really, a lot of days doesn't look like there's much going on, but,

35:10Otis Bittmeyer it my my hope is over time that it will yield other revenue streams. You know, like, we're we're we're looking at getting rabbits. We've got some chickens that were, taken care of, and

35:26Otis Bittmeyer I guess my my goal would be similar to with the coffee that I'm roasting the coffee that I want to be drinking, I'm also growing the food that I want to be eating and then, like, making more of it than I can consume and sharing it with my friends. So very similar to like, the coffee is kind of the prototype for how I wanna live in general.

35:49Rod Palmer You just you wanna do things with more intentionality. Everything you do, everything you consume, the way you spend your time, your energy, just very intentionally and not,

36:06Rod Palmer for, you know, pay working 50% of the time to pay the state or to pay the bills or to whatever, pay taxes. You don't care about affording taxes. You care about, affording to have the time

36:23Rod Palmer to do everything exact like, you make sure you wanna do it.

36:27Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. I just don't think life is long enough to spend it, doing like, working for other people and their dreams. At least that's I my life isn't long enough for that.

36:41Otis Bittmeyer So I've gotta figure out what it is that I want. I'm I am figuring it out. You know, another another huge, another big thing that I spend a lot of time on is my kids and my family. And,

36:57Otis Bittmeyer I got a you know, that's just not there's no shortcuts to parenting and teaching our children, besides spending

37:11Otis Bittmeyer large amounts of time with them. I I kind of view it as, like, maybe I'm not that great of a shot, like, getting to the basketball analogy. But if I keep shooting the ball, eventually,

37:25Otis Bittmeyer I'm gonna have a decent number of shots go in. And, also, if I'm shooting the ball a lot, I'll probably get better at shooting as well. So that's kind of how I view, like, time with my kids.

37:44Otis Bittmeyer It's, like, just gotta be around. Gotta be around and try to be available as much as I can. Well, it seems like

37:52Richard Greaser a good portion of the world has structured their entire life around primarily paying taxes first and parenting second, especially in The United States. And the the public education system has really, allowed for this to be a thing. And it seems like you're structuring

38:13Richard Greaser your entire life around

38:15Otis Bittmeyer taking care of your kids first, paying taxes second. Yeah. Again, I it's it's it comes back to, like, putting my energy into things that return energy to me, and I've not really discovered how

38:35Otis Bittmeyer paying taxes gives my energy back to me. It's an extractive process. It takes my life force and sends it to kill people in other countries as far as I can tell.

38:46Rod Palmer In yeah. In a very real sense, you can either pay your taxes or pay attention to your kids. And when you pay attention to your kids, you are putting in and receiving,

39:02Rod Palmer the right energy back from that, you know, experience that that way of spending your time and you're not giving, you're not getting that energy back when you pay your taxes. They don't fix the roads. They don't they don't help people with their taxes. They they launder it.

39:21Rod Palmer Yeah. And they and they give it to Ukraine and and Israel and so your every which is everybody else. Right. People who Jeffrey Epstein connected them to. Right? Like, it's but I don't time just paying attention to your kids. I think so. You know?

39:35Otis Bittmeyer And

39:37Rod Palmer Not everybody agrees.

39:39Otis Bittmeyer Well and that's fair. That's fair. But we each gotta make our own decisions. And, I'll say since I started moving more in this direction and,

39:53Otis Bittmeyer trying to orient my life this way, it has I won't say it's been easy and or that it is easy, but I feel like the results that I'm getting are much, much better than what I was getting before. Yep.

40:09Richard Greaser So what what would you say to the average American that looks at you and they say, here's this hippie guy riding around the bus. He's not primarily focused on paying taxes. I'm working my ass off here trying to give the state as much money as it possibly can. He spent time with his kids. He doesn't have a white picket fence. He's not out there mowing the lawn and watching sports ball on Saturday and Sunday. He's he's a threat to my way of life. Like, he

40:41Richard Greaser is a challenge for my world view. I just want him to, take on a mortgage and,

40:52Richard Greaser focus primarily on paying taxes just like I am. What would you say to somebody like that? I'd say

40:58Otis Bittmeyer they should probably read more Atlas Shrugged. And that's that you know, like, I don't really have an argument for someone who says that, because we're just on such completely different pages. And, in that way,

41:18Otis Bittmeyer so yeah. Read some Atlas Shrugged and then check back. Yeah.

41:23Rod Palmer If if two in 2025, if you're still proud to be a taxpayer, you need to read Atlas Shrugged cover to cover twice a year. And that's the only way that you can be helped. And if you if you try everything else, except that,

41:41Rod Palmer my answer's the same. There's only one solution.

41:44Otis Bittmeyer Right. And and and particularly, I would say, you gotta you it it's it's difficult, but you really gotta dig into John Galt's speech and and make sure that you

41:58Otis Bittmeyer catch what he's saying there because, in my experience, a lot of people that like paying taxes haven't really done the work to understand what John Galt is saying in his speech.

42:13Rod Palmer Right. And so you we go this goes back to that you like to do things with intentionality. And so when you pay your taxes with intentionality, it makes you, you know, it makes people suicidal, makes them depressed, it makes them question everything. So, like, when you sit down and you actually think about what you're doing, when you're using TurboTax

42:37Rod Palmer and you pull up pictures of CNN on the news, you see what's going on in The Middle East, or you see what's going on in Chicago, or you see what's going on, you know, with ocean mining, you you say to yourself, like, I'm paying it. What? For

42:55Rod Palmer this? And if and it just doesn't make sense. You can't live that life anymore. But if you, you know, so it's just a it's just a perspective thing. You're an intentional person and people who are proud to pay taxes are maybe they should be more intentional with their how they spend their time. Well, you know,

43:15Otis Bittmeyer if you're intentionally paying taxes and that really gets you going, great. But I I come back to, like, what is the fruit of whatever it is that you're doing? Whatever you're investing your time, your effort, your your

43:33Otis Bittmeyer your physical capacities, your mental capacities, all of your yourself. What are you giving yourself to, and then what does it give back to you? And if it's not leading so, you know, we talked earlier about, again, about coming back to this religious

43:51Otis Bittmeyer upbringing that we've had, I come back to what is it that I want in my life. I want the fruits of the spirit. I want more of that. I want love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self control, whatever the other ones are that I forgot. But, I'm gonna put my energy and my time into the things that produce more of those things for me.

44:17Otis Bittmeyer And if it doesn't produce that, I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna keep doing it because Right. Like, what's the point?

44:26Rod Palmer Right. I I I will sum up my thoughts on this with would people say to me forty hours of Bitcoin podcast per week? That's a lot of time. And,

44:39Rod Palmer my only answer is I'm taking more out of forty hours per week than it's taken from me. I'm getting more out of it than it's getting from me. And when you put the in things into that perspective, it's like same with with cigarettes. You know? I'm I'm getting more out of cigarettes, and they're getting out of me. And as long as that's true, as long as that's true, you know,

45:02Rod Palmer it's a it's a good guide for,

45:04Richard Greaser smoking, you know, smoking ticks and how many to smoke. I think a lot of people need to ask the question, like, does it make you gator to do this activity too? It's important.

45:13Rod Palmer Even if nobody else knows, even if even if only you know how gay it is, should you still you know, it's

45:22Otis Bittmeyer time to slow down. Well, you know, and maybe maybe, maybe being gay is leads to goodness for some people. You know? Yeah. It it it might get them where they wanna go. I don't know. I would I would say my advice would be

45:42Rod Palmer whenever you start feeling gay, stop doing what you're doing

45:47Richard Greaser and go hang out with your wife. Yeah. Well, we're I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm using gay as a slang term. It's like a synonym for So am I. It's a synonym for lame. It's not like actually homosexual.

45:59Rod Palmer If you're if you're are if you're arguing with Matthew Crowder on Twitter at 10:00 at night, that's gay. Cool. Go go watch, Netflix with your wife.

46:11Richard Greaser Like, a lot lot of homosexual men are pretty gay, you know? Like, Matthew Crowder. He's very gay. He's just sitting there just, you know, being and when I say gay, I mean lame, but he's also probably homosexual. Probably had a special relationship with Peter Thiel back in the day. But there's a lot of street men that act pretty gay too. Like, predator acts pretty gay. And,

46:37Richard Greaser like, vaping makes you gay. And, listening to little bubble music makes you gay. Yeah. There are some people.

46:47Otis Bittmeyer So so if we're if we're going down this route where, gayness is things that are lame, I would say that there are things that I've done in the past that used to be life giving, that they were giving back more to me than than they took. And then at some point, that changed.

47:09Otis Bittmeyer And they started taking more than they were giving. And I think maybe that's that's something that I've noticed is that some people

47:22Otis Bittmeyer seem to they recognize that there's something in their life that they wanna change, and then they change it to a new thing, and they find a lot of value in it for a while. And then they just keep doing it even after it seems like it's lost the benefit that it once had.

47:42Otis Bittmeyer Or I I've noticed that in my life, and then it's like, okay. It's time to it's time to move on. There's something new that wants to be born here. Yeah.

47:52Richard Greaser Like, not wearing a suit to work. Like, it felt good when you were, like, a kid showing up at, like, McDonald's. Well, I guess they make them dress up at McDonald's, so that's a bad example. But yeah. Fuck it when you're a kid showing up to whatever your silly job was, entry level job, like, not dressed up. But when you become a grown up, you wanna wear a suit to work. I think tattoos

48:12Otis Bittmeyer have kind of gone through that that, trajectory as well a bit.

48:19Richard Greaser Tattoos are dangerous.

48:21Rod Palmer Because if it's a gay tattoo, it makes you gay for life. Yeah. Tattoos are a low time preference decision. You need to lower your time preference when you get a tattoo. And a lot of people go in there. They're high time preference with their selection, and that's how you get, you know, barbed wire, you know, things on around your arm, you know, move the the triamp stamp for women, getting 58 k

48:48Rod Palmer tattooed on your butt cheek if you're, in a mean dang. You know, it's You know, not to not to shit on tattoos. I think They'll get a Bitcoin tattoo until your second cycle. That's what I'm saying. They'll get a Bitcoin tattoo until at least your second cycle.

49:05Otis Bittmeyer Mhmm. No. Yeah.

49:07Richard Greaser I I think there's there's nothing, like, bad to be said about tattoos, but the the problem is a lot of people do it impulsively when they're young, and it defines them for the rest of their lives.

49:20Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. And they change. Yeah. I think that's that's what I'm getting at is, you know, if you memorialize a particular period of your life on your body, does that make it harder then for you to leave that period behind

49:36Otis Bittmeyer when it's time to grow up a little bit? I don't know. I can't speak from experience with that.

49:42Rod Palmer Yeah. It sounds there needs to be more rituals in our lives, in our communities as men for, like, alright. You, are going through your podcaster,

49:58Rod Palmer phase in life, and that's gonna hit you it hits everybody differently, and then you're gonna have to retire from podcasting, and you're going to you're gonna have to go into a new phase. And, like, I I think we're finding out what the what happens to podcasters when they retire. But, it's a it happens with MMA fighters. Right? Like, they can't or athletes or musicians who kinda had just, like, a a short career.

50:24Rod Palmer They can't seem to move on, and they keep trying to relive to trying to succeed in the role that, they've outlived.

50:38Rod Palmer And it's it's roles. It's about roles. And what do you think your next role might be? Or where do you think what you think your role is right now? If a father is out, you know, a father. You've made that clear. Yeah. So that's pretty,

50:54Otis Bittmeyer you know, that's gonna be ongoing for quite a while, I think. But as far as everything else, it feels like it's always a a process of discovery. Even the coffee

51:10Otis Bittmeyer the coffee, endeavor is so I I recently had this realization that my first,

51:22Otis Bittmeyer like, the coffee shops, I had a very clear vision for what I wanted to do and how I wanted it to go, what I wanted it to look like. And that really was a hindrance

51:36Otis Bittmeyer to, certainly my happiness and my my ability to enjoy the process because it never really lived up to my expectations no matter what happened, no matter what successes came our way. It was always falling short of what I

51:57Otis Bittmeyer had in mind that it should be. And so this time around, I've been trying it a little bit differently and more just responding to opportunities and interest as it comes my way and holding it loosely and openly

52:15Otis Bittmeyer as a kind of, well, we'll see what this thing wants to be. And, you know, never would I have imagined that I would be sitting here with you guys talking about coffee.

52:29Otis Bittmeyer Never would I have imagined that I would start a podcast about coffee or coffee adjacent material with fundamentals. You know, it's it's

52:42Otis Bittmeyer so I think where I'm currently at is just trying to stay open and keep my eyes open for the opportunities that come my way and then respond to them in whatever way feels, like I'm able to respond. You want optionality?

53:01Rod Palmer You value optionality?

53:04Otis Bittmeyer Well and I don't I just I don't know. Maybe it's just me, my personality. Also, I don't think this is the time in, like, this the current epoch that we're in. I don't think this is the time to be strapping yourself down to all sorts of commitments. Like, I feel like we're in

53:25Otis Bittmeyer a volatile season. We need to be able to respond.

53:29Rod Palmer If business cat and fundamentals are right, there might be a pole shift, and you wanna be able to drive south and get, you know, to a safe spot in the event of a pole shift or a fourth turning. If you if if we get a fourth turning, you know, load up the bus,

53:50Rod Palmer head to El Salvador, or, you know, wherever, where wherever you wanna go. It just seems like the future is extremely uncertain and that the revolution will not be geographically

54:03Rod Palmer evenly distributed. So you want optionality. You don't wanna plant roots yet. You're you're not ready to, to to to start a homestead

54:12Otis Bittmeyer next to Rev Huddle. Yeah. I mean, that sounds great. But yeah. It's I mean and it's hard, you know, it it is hard to do what I wanna do without

54:25Otis Bittmeyer tying into some land somewhere. But,

54:29Rod Palmer Real estate's a shit coin. We get that. Yeah. But I think there are ways

54:34Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. There are ways to you know, what I come back to is not everybody's in the same boat where everybody feels like they need to be as mobile as I do. So that's where I come back to, like, this is this is maybe the role that I play in that I'm more available

54:54Otis Bittmeyer to come alongside folks who, want to build things together with other people.

55:05Otis Bittmeyer I wanna build things with people. I don't wanna just be out here doing things.

55:10Rod Palmer You wanna be with the pioneers. You wanna you wanna go Yeah. And and be mobile with the you wanna go on the Oregon Trail with the pioneers, the El Salvador Trail, the whatever you wanna call it, whatever that turns out to be. Right. You wanna be out the edge at the fringe, change air, you know, just changing like, Richard said.

55:32Rod Palmer Yeah. Do you being a threat to, being a threat to the MPC lifestyle? You don't wanna stop being a threat to the MPC lifestyle. You know, I don't I mean,

55:41Otis Bittmeyer view it as a threat or not. I I just think we need examples of people. So all of my life, I've kind of felt like if I wanted to do the things that I wanna do, I simply cannot do them the MPC way because it's too expensive. It's too extractive. I'll never be able to do what I wanna do,

56:03Otis Bittmeyer by following the rules per se. And so, yeah, here here I am. You know, here we are doing the things that we wanna do, living the life that we wanna live, and I would say to anyone who's kinda sitting there

56:21Otis Bittmeyer in their Fiat job, wanting like, dreaming of someday living whatever it is whatever their dream is.

56:35Otis Bittmeyer You gotta do it now. You gotta do it. You gotta start in some way now, and you gotta be willing to, think outside the box. You gotta be willing to say no to the status quo, to the to the way intentional. Done. Yeah.

56:55Otis Bittmeyer Otherwise, you know, like, the rules are not set up for you to accomplish your dreams. The rules are set up to keep you away from them or to to, like, set up roadblocks.

57:10Richard Greaser So The baseline is retarded. You don't wanna be striving to be the baseline. There you go. So was that always something that you were like, or is that relatively new that you started adopting that type of mindset?

57:25Otis Bittmeyer I think I just I think I've always been this way. I I, you know, I went to school for accounting, and

57:36Otis Bittmeyer all through school, I just was like, what is going on here? This is stupid. This is just a waste. But I knew I needed to finish,

57:49Otis Bittmeyer and I think it was just because I needed to really see how the whole system worked. But as soon as I graduated, I knew I could never be an accountant. I could never sit in that office and and push pencil for forty hours a week.

58:10Otis Bittmeyer So, yeah,

58:11Rod Palmer I think I've always got It was it was value. You mentioned something about this earlier that it's, sometimes it is good or it's valuable to have, the, you know, these very extreme, like, options in these sides and these perspectives,

58:31Rod Palmer to be able to kinda, like, immerse yourself. And so it's, like, valuable to try out the role of the accountant, to try out these different roles because you finally you're looking for something very specific, and you can't articulate it. You experimented with doing gay you experimented with doing gay stuff. You experimented

58:52Rod Palmer with Steve Coiner stuff, and you're looking for something better.

58:58Otis Bittmeyer And I guess growing up in a conservative religious tradition, where there were lots of rules, there was a certain way of doing things. Like, that started early on and then just always feeling like I needed

59:16Otis Bittmeyer to be able to explore more. I needed to be able to have more optionality as you're saying. So, yeah, I mean, it's it's been a theme.

59:26Richard Greaser It's been a theme. What's your what's your favorite weird,

59:30Otis Bittmeyer religious rule that you grew up with? I wasn't allowed to wear shorts or a tank top. So when I played basketball in middle school, I was wearing sweats and a short sleeve shirt under my jersey, and, it was pretty hot. Interesting.

59:46Richard Greaser So were you, like, the odd odd one now? Pretty different for that? You play competitive basketball in sweatpants.

59:55Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. Yeah. I definitely was. Like, even other kids from my church. Like, that was that was my family rule. Even other kids from my church would wear shorts.

1:00:08Rod Palmer Okay. So that was, like, soup you were, like, super maxi at, like, fundamental, like, extra conservative, on top of the base layer of the conservative culture you were already kind of in? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Do you drop pride or, like, does that a do you feel bad? Did that experience was that broadly a bad feeling?

1:00:31Rod Palmer Or was it like I'm proud to be extra sway when I play basketball? It's tougher and it's not as gay. It's like this is this is kind of a point I I was trying to think of making earlier where it's when he says being gay has nothing to do with being homosexual. If you grew up like I did and it sounds like you did, very in a very conservative upbringing, being gay just means wearing shorts. Being gay, your grandpa called you gay if you had an earring. Your grandpa would call you gay, or would think it's gay to get a tattoo,

1:01:02Rod Palmer to wear shorts, to to drive a four cylinder vehicle, engine. You know, it's if you see when it's the it's kind of like you want to have the freedom to be a little bit gay, at least but not homosexual. Just make your grandpa a little your ancestors,

1:01:22Rod Palmer maybe maybe pass the boundaries of what they would be find acceptable, but do it in such a genuine intentional way that they would still be proud at the end of the day. Yeah. Absolutely. You know? And as I get older, I have a lot of respect

1:01:36Otis Bittmeyer and appreciation for the community that I grew up in. Increasingly so, I would say, because there was a lot that I think, there was a lot about that community that we as Bitcoiners who are trying to build citadels and

1:01:56Otis Bittmeyer mesh to dells and all of the all of the things that we're trying to build. I think, there's a lot that we can learn from communities like the one that I grew up in that was very tight knit, very, relational,

1:02:10Otis Bittmeyer and there was a lot of, back and forth, a lot of value for value being traded, that I didn't recognize at the time. But now I see it. And so, yeah, there was there was some of the

1:02:26Otis Bittmeyer the stuff, like, not wearing shorts to play basketball that I feel like probably doesn't help our mission a whole lot. So we can leave that that one back in the past.

1:02:41Otis Bittmeyer But as far as, like, helping your neighbor, being connected to the people around you, that's as far as I'm concerned, that's, we need that.

1:02:55Otis Bittmeyer We need more of that. It it's for me,

1:02:58Rod Palmer this hits very close to home. I I nobody wants to tell their wife that they did something gay. But when I show my wife my AI music, it is gay, but it's it's good. It's, the song is so good that she's still proud of me.

1:03:15Rod Palmer And that's just kinda what I want out of life. Like, sometimes I'm gonna feel a little bit ashamed to tell my dad that I'm going to be a full time Bitcoin podcaster. But once he listens to it and hears how good it is, he's still proud of me, even though he thinks I'm gay. For sure. You think like it was, you think it was a valuable lesson, just

1:03:35Richard Greaser learning how to survive being a weird one, not fitting in. That you could survive

1:03:41Rod Palmer being a little bit outcast

1:03:43Richard Greaser that it wasn't the end of the world. The square were in sweatpants during the basketball game.

1:03:48Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess now I'm to the point where I'm, like, I have no interest in being in normie because that seems that seems terrible

1:04:00Rod Palmer to me. So, yeah, I mean It's it's a powering it's a power to know you can Yeah. Sorry. It's empowering to know you can wear goofy clothes and still go your girlfriend. That's true. Yeah. Oh, man.

1:04:13Otis Bittmeyer It's it's really is a marvel that Jubilee ever, agreed to like, that we ever got together because when we first started, dating, I definitely was

1:04:28Richard Greaser wearing goofy clothes. Well, it's that's part of the wife's job is to kinda, you know, domesticate the man in a lot of ways. Yeah. Well, that Yes. That definitely tracks with our experience.

1:04:38Rod Palmer Yes. Like we said, you your wife's job is to make your bed for you. Your wife's job is to pick out your clothes for you so you don't you're not looking to do, like, wrinkly Bitcoin podcast t shirt and dirty corduroys. It's like we're going to church. We're going to the meetup. We're going to work. Like, we gotta we gotta look sharp or we gotta at least look, we gotta look we gotta look bright for the situation.

1:05:07Richard Greaser Right. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I think it's a good lesson. So was, like, your kind of story arc so far, has it been, like, you know, growing up in this very religious setting, being surrounded by people that weren't feeling kind of, you know, disconnected from them in some degree because of the family's values than going off on your own,

1:05:32Richard Greaser like trying to be normal, finding it super unsatisfactory and then kind of reverting back to being different. So like college, you know, trying to become an accountant was kind of like the what what do the Amish call it? Rammstager

1:05:48Richard Greaser or whatever?

1:05:49Otis Bittmeyer Oh, Romspringer.

1:05:51Richard Greaser Yeah. Romspringer?

1:05:52Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we didn't have that, technically. But, essentially, I guess, that was what I was trying to do is explore the world, which I think is important. You gotta

1:06:08Otis Bittmeyer I I needed to to see what else is out there. You know? And I've I've gained a lot. I've learned a lot from being out in the world. But, I guess as I get older, I'm coming back to yeah. I think a lot of the the bread and butter, the

1:06:31Otis Bittmeyer the values the the underlying values that I grew up with are really worth preserving. And, yeah, we we need to figure out how we can

1:06:45Otis Bittmeyer bring them along with us into the new world. We need to figure out how we can integrate Bitcoin into them. You know? But, there was a lot there that, there's a lot of value there.

1:07:03Rod Palmer Yeah. It's, it might sound crazy today, but there was a time up until a few years ago where the normie NPC, like, life trajectory

1:07:17Rod Palmer didn't seem that bad and you it would be easy to be fooled into thinking you should pursue it, and now it's it's it's kind of obvious looking back, but it's it is important to to see for yourself sometimes, you know, if you're actually drawn towards something, you should at least learn about it to know that you're not, you know, it's not for you.

1:07:40Otis Bittmeyer Right.

1:07:41Richard Greaser But there might be some value there. Yeah. Do you think the the guys that are really excited about running knots, so, like, that's their way of reverting back to their religious upbringings that they grew up in?

1:07:53Otis Bittmeyer Well, I've noticed that there are people, like, people that I grew up with that just kind of substituted one type of fundamentalism for another. So a lot of them would hop over to like, they'd go from conservative to liberal, but then just essentially

1:08:12Otis Bittmeyer the the woke angry liberal mindset is the one that they adopted. And so I I think it's possible that It's I I the the energy that I get from the knots people seems to be

1:08:29Otis Bittmeyer it it kind of feels a bit similar to the fundamentalist energy to the hardcore liberal fundamentalist energy.

1:08:39Rod Palmer I don't know. It's people yeah. It's just like people who some people are good at taking tasks in school, and some people are really good at passing purity tests. And so they just like to go from, like, situation to situation where it's like, I'm gonna pass the most purity tests, get to the rise to the top, you know, succeed. I can succeed in this little niche. Yeah. It's it's like,

1:09:00Otis Bittmeyer having correctness of belief

1:09:06Rod Palmer is, seems to be a religion for some. Do you believe that everybody is inherently religious in one way or another? Could you define religious? I would say well, you're right, Richard. Do you have a good definition? Like, so I would say anything that you, you know, would consider sacred, something you define sacred in the way that aspect of your life or your, routine or your background, if you find it sacred, that would kind of,

1:09:35Richard Greaser substitute for spiritual or religious. I guess there's different ways to to define religious. I I guess in the way that I I frame the question, it wasn't a great question because it just assumes everybody is religious based on the definition that I have, which is, aligned with this one I just looked up. But, religions is a system of beliefs, practices, and values centered around the questions of existence, purpose, and the sacred. So I guess there there's some people that just don't really believe in anything. Like, there there's, like, the true MPC,

1:10:11Richard Greaser if you know what I mean.

1:10:13Otis Bittmeyer It's hard for me to imagine that those people exist. But, sure. I think You never you never met one? Well, I think everybody believes in something. You know? Even if you claim not to believe in anything, you there's still something that you

1:10:33Rod Palmer Yeah. Like, atheists, their belief is that they, though, that they can get everybody to fail a purity test, like, that there's no purity test that can be passed, and because the the nobody can pass all the purity tests, you know, none of the purity test issuers are get to be right.

1:10:53Otis Bittmeyer Right. Yeah. It which in its way then become which in its own way kind of becomes a purity test. Yeah. So I don't know. I I think these people who are so

1:11:09Otis Bittmeyer damaged from spirituality and religion that they need to deny all of it, that's fine. Again, I would say

1:11:21Otis Bittmeyer take the time that you need to go through that season, but recognize that, like, for most of us who are, like, going through, some sort of, for most of us who are living life,

1:11:38Otis Bittmeyer that that has its end, you know, it it it reaches its end as far as its usefulness, that that belief. And many of us find on the other side that we come back to some sort of spirituality, some sort of belief, some sort of religion, if you will. So as a kid, I I went to bible memory camp. So summer camp for a week every year. But to get to Bible memory camp, you had to memorize, like, 50 Bible verses every

1:12:08Otis Bittmeyer every year. And so I memorized a lot of scripture and whatever. It was fine. I I did it so I could go to camp and hang out with my friends for a week. That was good. But I wasn't really necessarily, like the the the scripture that I was memorizing didn't necessarily resonate with me in a life giving way, in a generative way. What I've noticed though as an adult is that

1:12:39Otis Bittmeyer a lot of the scripture now comes back to me in a way that does connect in a way that makes sense, in a way that is helpful to me. And it's usually a very different interpretation than the one that I grew up with. So Yeah.

1:12:58Otis Bittmeyer I don't know if that I don't know if that makes sense or connects. But Would you would you,

1:13:04Richard Greaser send your kids to to Bitcoin white paper camp so that they can memorize, you know, the sacred text of Bitcoin, like the, the text in the Genesis block and and the white paper. So,

1:13:18Richard Greaser when they, they might like not find it life giving in the moment, but like thirty years down the line when they're, you know, being tempted with supporting some sort of contentious fork that would turn Bitcoin into shitcoin or like, you know, support like some sort of government policy that prevents people from spending it. They remember the words, the white paper, of of peer to peer cash system. Oh, man.

1:13:45Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. That's a great question. I have no idea. Because it's like, is it useful to me because I was forced to learn it? Or would there have been other ways

1:13:59Otis Bittmeyer I I wasn't forced to learn it. I chose to It's

1:14:03Rod Palmer to memorize it. Yeah. Go ahead. This is where this is where we go back to the conversation earlier is overthinking it and just, like, breaking it down to what it really is in, like, the simplicity. It's like you what you said when you were a kid. You went you memorized the bible verses. You memorized the songs. You went to camp. You did all these rituals. You did all these, obligations or, like, structured, social you did it so you could hang out with your friends with the in the right type of friends. It's like, what's the what should we talk about on the podcast? What should we how should we structure it? What should we memorize? How it's just,

1:14:41Rod Palmer you know, not everybody likes the Bitcoin conference, just like not everybody likes going to church. But it's a reason to see all your friends. It's a reason to go and be in have a community with people who share your same values and to be able to connect with them and have these these are like like church or camp or conferences. They're

1:15:05Rod Palmer just ways that people all plan and organize their energy and their time so that they can come together and have a coffee shop in the in the forest in the middle of Michigan in July,

1:15:19Rod Palmer you know, or, you know, or August every year, to get together in this city and do this thing, you know, every minute, whatever it is, July 4. It's, it's just a reason to hang out with your friends and talk about podcasts and talk about life and,

1:15:37Rod Palmer you know, build things together, including community and families and and and bonds and culture. Just it's just it's just a reason to hang out with your friends. Absolutely.

1:15:48Otis Bittmeyer I I guess I'm one so, Richard, to come back to your question, I'm I would hope that I could arrange,

1:16:01Otis Bittmeyer experiences for my children where they see the value in the moment, and they're not feeling coerced into doing something. I don't know. Like, kids need to be pushed to do hard things too, and things that are uncomfortable that they don't wanna do. But I'm I'm I'm trying to foster an environment for my kids where,

1:16:27Otis Bittmeyer ultimately, they get to decide what they wanna do and how they wanna push themselves and where they wanna be where they need my help to be pushed instead of imposing

1:16:41Otis Bittmeyer so many of those things on them from the top down. I don't know. You know? I don't know how it's gonna work out for them. I'm sure they'll have their their complaints about our parenting. But,

1:16:59Otis Bittmeyer growing up in a in a system where so much was prescripted to me, like, obviously, like I said, it can still turn out to be beneficial.

1:17:12Otis Bittmeyer But I think, in general, I'd like to see a world where we're moving from top down prescription of beliefs, actions

1:17:23Rod Palmer Yeah.

1:17:24Otis Bittmeyer All of that, you know, to each of us get to operate out of our own volition. Less,

1:17:31Rod Palmer less rote memorization, less daily pledge of allegiances, less, you know, just the structure that nobody's thinking about and more intentionality with everything. And so Yeah. Yeah. I and and

1:17:49Rod Palmer when you like you said, kids don't like to do tough things. They have to be, pushed into it's like you do you do it by showing them that you're going through, your sat making sacrifices to go through this process, to make, you know, everybody better. On the other end, you're going through it together.

1:18:08Rod Palmer You're not coercing. You're not forcing them. You're doing, you're experiencing it with them.

1:18:13Richard Greaser Yeah. That's an important, important point. Well, I think one of the key things that kids really need is just things explained to them the importance of why. And I think one of the reasons a lot of kids struggle a lot of times is they don't, the parents didn't explain the, to them the compelling reason of why. And really, it's just like, this is the thing that you have to accept. And struggling with understanding the why of it. It just means your your story is unclear, I guess,

1:18:46Richard Greaser if that makes sense.

1:18:48Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. And it's tough because kids ask why for all sorts of things. And sometimes, I just don't have the time or the energy to explain to my five year old why I made the decision that I made

1:19:04Otis Bittmeyer about, I don't know, why she can't have a sucker this minute. But I think you're you're absolutely right. And and most of our like, I guess, my experience in the normie world, normie fiat life was, it was even harder because of how busy I was.

1:19:28Otis Bittmeyer It the you know, like, a a a large portion of the changes that I've made in the last three years has been leaving just a shit ton of space for those sorts of conversations with my kids.

1:19:45Otis Bittmeyer Whereas before, it was, like, we're just running from one thing to another, and we don't have time to sit down and talk about those sorts of things. And so that's I think, for for for me, clearing out my schedule and leaving time in my day where I don't actually have anything scheduled has has made it a lot easier for me then to take the time to explain to my girls

1:20:17Otis Bittmeyer why it is that this is happening or what, you know

1:20:23Rod Palmer where Sometimes you just have to tell them Yeah. For lower their time preference. Sometimes you just have to tell your hormonal or emotional daughter to lower her time preference or son, you know, and that's Yeah. They have to think about what that means. And that's the value that they get from that is thinking about their time preference.

1:20:43Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. And being willing to say it over and over for

1:20:47Richard Greaser years on end. Have you ever considered recording, a Bitcoin podcast for every question that you'd get asked repeatedly, and you could play it. You just like, you go, you have it, stamped as a vinyl.

1:21:03Richard Greaser You set it up on your record player. You're just like, okay. Here's why. And you just play it. That's a great idea. You know, at Lake Satoshi, John was

1:21:14Otis Bittmeyer saying that his daughters know exactly what he's gonna say. Like, to like, whenever whenever he has you know, whenever they ask a question like that, they know exactly what he's gonna say. And I was

1:21:31Otis Bittmeyer kind of reflecting on I'd like to have that consistency, and I think vinyl podcasts definitely, could help with that. Yeah. Vinyl's really interesting.

1:21:43Richard Greaser Baba gave me a new appreciation for music. I interviewed him the other night on my music show, and he was talking about the difference between, like, new vinyls and old vinyls. So

1:21:60Richard Greaser the way that they used to record music was on tape and they would have individuals that, like, go and actually cut pieces of tape and splice them together. And that's how they made it. So it was it was very, like, analog way of recording where now things have gone digital. The entire recording style has changed. So what they used to do is they used to record a band altogether

1:22:26Richard Greaser playing at the same time, and now they're doing it with individual tracks. Mhmm. But what what he was explaining is there's there's so much less life on the vinyls. And, like, one of the reasons why people go back and they listen to the vinyls is because they, there there's more feeling to it in the way that it's recorded versus, like, a digital recording. And I thought I I found that really fascinating, but I almost wonder, like, to make the process more pleasant for your children

1:23:01Richard Greaser to listen to it, maybe you should record it analog. Like, you could do probably the easiest way is to record the podcast on a cassette player, onto a cassette of you talking. Yeah. Definitely.

1:23:16Otis Bittmeyer This is good. I don't think I don't think digital is the way to go for this endeavor. I mean, it might be. Don't overthink it. I think it's the key, though. Don't overthink it.

1:23:26Richard Greaser Yeah. But it is interesting for the for this group of children that are being raised by Bitcoin podcasters.

1:23:33Rod Palmer Yeah. You know, like there's people are like, you're a pastor's kid or you're a missionary's kid. But you it's like, I could see people being like, you must be a podcaster's kid.

1:23:46Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. Definitely. Well, there's that there's that thing of being kind of in the public eye a little bit. Yeah.

1:23:53Richard Greaser It it's fascinating to think about your Bitcoin podcast for your children after you die, that you're putting out all this content of you expressing your thoughts and opinions on the world. And they're gonna

1:24:11Richard Greaser because, you know, when when a parent dies you, like, you wanna connect with them. You know what I mean? In all sorts of ways. You wanna look at their pictures. You wanna, you know, remember them, hear stories about them. Your children are gonna have all these Bitcoin podcasts to listen to you, to remember you. If they want. Yeah. If they want.

1:24:32Rod Palmer And you don't want your you don't want your attitude too. I listen to your friend and be like, oh my shit. My dad was a retarded big blocker. And it's embarrassing to you. It's like, you gotta be you gotta state your opinion and express yourself in a way that, not only makes you proud in the moment, but makes you that you're sure that you're gonna be proud of when you're when your kids are listening to your podcast in thirty years. Yeah. Definitely.

1:25:01Richard Greaser As far as, like, you know, because I think all three of us, like, we grew up on photo albums of our families. Is the future gonna be, like, the way that kids remember their parents instead of, like, a photo out I guess platforms like Instagram and Facebook have kinda become photo albums. But is the future like the Zoomer generation

1:25:26Richard Greaser when they're dying off? Are their kids gonna look at their TikTok videos? Or how's that gonna work? Do you yeah. It's like, do you do you want your great granddaughter,

1:25:37Rod Palmer your great grandson? Are they still gonna be listening to your podcast? Like, are your ancestors are your ancestors gonna listen to your podcast? Because that's gotta suck if you spent a lot of your time and energy and you put out 500 episodes of a podcast.

1:25:54Rod Palmer And, like, your kids and your grandkids won't even listen to it. Yeah. Is this kind of a new,

1:26:01Otis Bittmeyer new world we're living in where it's so easy now for so many of us to create things that could potentially live on, to be

1:26:16Rod Palmer Right. Our UXXOs are not the only thing that are gonna live for a thousand years. Our podcasts, our memes are well, you know, we talk about the fourth turning on here all the time. And if the fourth turning is to be believed, we're gonna have to be building a lot of new institutions

1:26:37Rod Palmer to kind of be the foundation of society, communities, everything, the new the new world.

1:26:47Rod Palmer So it's we better be intentional about what we're building right now because that might be those institutions in in the next few decades. And do we want our kids to be like, I can't believe my dad created the gay ass United Nations. Yeah. Or the Fed, you know? Right.

1:27:06Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. I mean, so here's a question that I have been rolling around. It's maybe a bit related. What what is the role of institutions? We're kind of at a point where seems like a lot of institutions have outlived their usefulness to us. And

1:27:27Otis Bittmeyer so I guess yeah. I'm just I I'm thinking a lot of because I I

1:27:33Rod Palmer What I think it's kind of like a trying to build a cultural protocol to solve certain problems, at, you know, when you kinda start scaling your community or you're scaling your enterprise, whatever it is, like, you can abstract it all you want.

1:27:51Rod Palmer It's, it's it's a protocol, it's a framework, a mental model that kind of, you know, how would you define the intellectual Silk Road? Or how would we define it? I don't know, but, like, you can extrapolate that out, and it's kind of up. And then how how do we broaden

1:28:13Rod Palmer the, aligning of our incentives?

1:28:17Richard Greaser Yeah. I think, I think the institutions are somewhat necessary because when you think of what an institution is, it's just a system or organization that plays some sort of role in a society. So you could argue that like Satoshi is an institution. You could argue that the Bitcoin conference is an institution. You could argue that Matthew Kraner's Bitcoin University is an institution.

1:28:43Rod Palmer The Mache Dadell is an institution.

1:28:46Richard Greaser Mechadelle is an institution. So, I don't think it's a matter of institutions being unnecessary, but I think there needs to be more critical thinking about what the institution is. It needs to be an intentional thing.

1:28:60Rod Palmer Yeah. And it needs to be I I think everybody needs to have consensus on what the rules are, what the purpose, what the creed, what the what the value system, what the word, everybody has to be a cons in consensus with kind of a certain amount of foundational assumptions.

1:29:23Otis Bittmeyer It seems like we've seen this pattern I mean, we've seen this pattern over and over again where a new thing starts, and then it becomes institutionalized, and then it loses the magic

1:29:39Otis Bittmeyer or some of the magic. You know, I mean, I feel like this happened with Christianity, And then, like, Christianity Jesus does his thing, gets gets the ball rolling, bunch of people are excited, and there's new stuff happening.

1:29:58Otis Bittmeyer And then all of a sudden, the state gets involved and starts using it for its purposes. And then all of a sudden, the thing that was life giving and really beneficial, becomes a cage for a lot of people.

1:30:18Rod Palmer But It's beneficial until it gets exploited.

1:30:21Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. Exactly. And, I mean, so there are still pockets of Christianity that have continued to be useful to people here in I mean, obviously, Christianity continues to be useful to a lot of people, while also at the same time being a cage. I I think about this a lot in regards to Bitcoin because I think the same thing is happening right now

1:30:47Otis Bittmeyer and, like, with institutional adoption of Bitcoin. Anyway, it's, I I think you're right. Intentionality is very important here because otherwise, we just keep recreating the same systems that we've been trying to escape. Been doing a better job of ex like,

1:31:11Rod Palmer with Christianity, and I think it's gonna be very similar, if under the very bullish feature of of Bitcoin, it's like you don't have to be a fundamentalist, an on chain maximalist, a devout

1:31:29Rod Palmer follower of this protocol, of this institution. But we also had, like, need to do a better job explaining to people

1:31:38Rod Palmer why they still benefit from a broader cultural, appreciation of these

1:31:47Rod Palmer voluntary, value you know, or, thermodynamically sound institutions. Bitcoin, do you value from Bitcoin even if you don't want to make it your life? You value from this, my religion or my, ideology, my culture?

1:32:04Rod Palmer Society needs to start to do a better job of of appreciating each other's culture if we're gonna get along. You know, it makes make things work and build new institutions.

1:32:14Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. I think we need bigger stories or or different better stories as well.

1:32:21Rod Palmer Better memes, better ideas. The stories is a a very good, that's where you have to start if you don't have them. But then it's you you kinda build from there. A story becomes reality, becomes communities, it becomes institutions. I mean, institutions

1:32:40Rod Palmer are stories. That's what they are. Institutions are stories. And a big enough, good enough story that enough people believe can really build powerful institutions, powerful communities. But, you know, you have to have people like Portland Hollow to come in and and try and exploit exploits and patch them before the state or, you know, the communists

1:33:04Rod Palmer or whoever the leeches are come in and start to institutionalize and exploit everything and turn it into make it all fake and gay. Yeah. I agree. I think we need better stories for sure.

1:33:17Richard Greaser We don't have any fountain boost to go through tonight. This is the first episode of the intellectual Silk Road series that we're doing. Our goal is to talk to people on the, intellectual Silk Road. So, Otis, what is the intellectual soaker mean to you?

1:33:34Otis Bittmeyer So I guess for me, it's the playground where we get to we get to try out all of these things that we've been talking about, Try out the the new institutions or or, I guess, maybe even the precursors to what eventually will become institutions. But we get to experiment

1:33:57Otis Bittmeyer and be intentional. Do new thing, kind of outside of outside of the current systems. I would say not not even needing to, like, try to fight them or,

1:34:17Otis Bittmeyer resist what's going on, but just kinda stepping outside and playing around with with possibility.

1:34:28Richard Greaser Acting as pioneers, building our own institutions, exploring the world for ourselves. We're not we're not going out to the capitol to paint the lawn orange and rally. We're drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes outside of Otis's boss.

1:34:43Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. We're traveling across the country to spend time with friends because it's important. And, yeah, we're building things together because that's Yeah. That That's how it happens. Some people some people are outsourcing

1:35:04Rod Palmer their thinking. Nobody's outsourcing their thinking to the media anymore. That that kinda fell apart. Credentialism really suffering. But people are outsourcing their thinking now to Chad GPT. And you can either outsource your thinking to Chad GPT,

1:35:21Rod Palmer or you can take an intentional approach to life, lower your time preference a little bit, stop prioritizing paying your taxes over paying attention to your kids, and

1:35:39Rod Palmer start to reconnect with the value and the lessons you learned that maybe you overlooked before you learned to be more intentional and,

1:35:53Rod Palmer try to appreciate the values that, you would have gained if you if you if you thought about it in a different way, perhaps. Yeah. There you have it. Play the right music at your coffee shop, or else people will stop coming in. Well, where can people

1:36:11Richard Greaser find you? Are you on Noster? Is that your thing?

1:36:14Otis Bittmeyer I'm on Noster, and signal is mostly where I hang out and and then in person. So I really I I prefer for people to come hang out with me in person. But to do that, you gotta

1:36:31Otis Bittmeyer you gotta build up some

1:36:33Richard Greaser social capital. So What's the what's the minimum social capital score to come hang out with you?

1:36:40Otis Bittmeyer I'd say a good a good fifty

1:36:44Richard Greaser fifty units of social capital. I I think it was pretty reasonable.

1:36:49Otis Bittmeyer Yeah. But, yeah, Noster, I'm not super active on there quite frankly, because I even Noster. You know, Noster compared to x is much higher signal, but I'm finding that, the next step up for me as far as signal goes

1:37:11Otis Bittmeyer is signal, like, the groups that I'm in on there. And then the Apex signal is in person or, like, conversations like this,

1:37:26Otis Bittmeyer person to person interaction, face to face.

1:37:32Rod Palmer One of, what are your most popular and controversial podcast episodes of Sound Coffee was with our friend Pies. We love Pies. Pies is great. Love the episode. However,

1:37:47Rod Palmer does it give you pause if, like, if if Pies and you ever came, face, you know, cross paths IRL in real life, what it what it would be like if serving him caffeine, like, can you imagine Pies on, like, a lot of caffeine? Do you think he could handle that? Do you think he could handle the Pipes?

1:38:07Otis Bittmeyer I think so. Because pie I I believe pies generally functions on a lot of caffeine. So it would almost con concern me more to encounter him without caffeine.

1:38:21Rod Palmer You do not want to see pies in the morning before he's had a cup of coffee. Like, that's probably worse than pies on, you know, a couple of, a couple of espressos.

1:38:32Otis Bittmeyer I would assume so.

1:38:34Richard Greaser Yeah. Very cool. Well, I really appreciate you coming on, Otis. Look forward to hanging out with you soon.

1:38:42Otis Bittmeyer Well, yeah. Thanks for having me. And if you guys are ever in the area, please let's get together

1:38:51Richard Greaser and hang. Well, thank you everybody for listening to this episode, the debut episode of the annual white shorts, Silk Road.

1:39:03Unknown Here's where your story begins. The journey will be long. There'll be dark days, but you'll choose to be strong. Time is running away like a bullet from a gun. Enjoy it while you can. The past can't be undone.

1:39:26Unknown Across the road, choices to be made. It's your story to write. Embrace Explosions all across the sky. They try to make you quit, but you can't comply.

1:40:04Unknown Cigarette in hand, firing your eye. You rather really live before it's your turn to die.

1:40:58Unknown Focus fix on the path ahead. The road is long, but you can't prepare. Open the sky up above your head.

1:41:11Unknown You'd rather try than submit to be misled.

1:41:56Unknown Here's where your story begins. The journey will be long. There'll be dark days, but you'll choose to be strong. Time is running away like a bullet from a gun. Chase it while you can. The past

1:42:14Unknown can't be undone. Across the road, choices to be made. It's your story to write. Embrace faith.