Revision history · Transcript
Transcript: Clowns Against Knotzis | Behind the Podcast Episode 16
1 revision · first seen 2026-08-12 · last edited 2026-08-12 · 0 by Henry 1 by a human
- bugle-ingest[bot] 2026-08-12 Ingest: 0 new episode(s) — raw sources + transcripts 32a9a2b
Show changes
diff --git a/wiki/transcripts/clowns-against-knotzis-behind-the-podcast-episode-16.md b/wiki/transcripts/clowns-against-knotzis-behind-the-podcast-episode-16.md new file mode 100644 index 00000000..9700712b @@ -0,0 +1,1025 @@ +--- +title: "Transcript: Clowns Against Knotzis | Behind the Podcast Episode 16" +type: transcript +episode: clowns-against-knotzis-behind-the-podcast-episode-16 +generated: true +date: 2025-05-15 +audio: "https://feeds.fountain.fm/R8scBF2Wiykm0YVldsHQ/items/5BZOfmnq0CBMpv69Hizj/files/AUDIO---DEFAULT---134ecffd-0566-4a8b-9826-3c02f582faa6.mp3" +duration: "2:23:37" +sources: + - raw/episodes/clowns-against-knotzis-behind-the-podcast-episode-16/bundle.json +--- + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-0">0:00</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-0" data-t="0">Welcome back to the Bugles</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2" data-t="2">Behind the Podcast series,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4" data-t="4">where we interview</span> <span class="cue" id="t-7" data-t="7">people from the Bugleverse and people in the community and today we're talking to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-13" data-t="13">a pioneer</span> <span class="cue" id="t-15" data-t="15">of the Bitcoin podcast industry.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-18">0:18</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-18" data-t="18">We talk a lot about OG Bitcoiners,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-21" data-t="21">but the timeframe for that's a little different when we talk about OG Bitcoin podcasters.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-26" data-t="26">These are the guys that came in around 2016,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-29" data-t="29">2017</span> <span class="cue" id="t-31" data-t="31">before, you know, Bitcoin got over 10,000.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-35" data-t="35">These were the guys who,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-37">0:37</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-37" data-t="37">I mean, think about the bad user experience</span> <span class="cue" id="t-41" data-t="41">of Bitcoin podcasting today</span> <span class="cue" id="t-43" data-t="43">and rewind back</span> <span class="cue" id="t-45" data-t="45">seven or eight years</span> <span class="cue" id="t-47" data-t="47">and think about and think about what they were dealing with and the affordable UX and the inability to get zapped with lightning,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-56" data-t="56">for their podcasts</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-58">0:58</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-58" data-t="58">like</span> <span class="cue" id="t-59" data-t="59">not getting paid</span> <span class="cue" id="t-61" data-t="61">It it was for the love of the game and these guys did it. They laid the foundation</span> <span class="cue" id="t-66" data-t="66">They they anchored the chain on which</span> <span class="cue" id="t-69" data-t="69">we are thriving and listening to forty hours of Bitcoin podcasts</span> <span class="cue" id="t-74" data-t="74">a week today and getting paid</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-77">1:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-77" data-t="77">in lightning</span> <span class="cue" id="t-78" data-t="78">sets</span> <span class="cue" id="t-80" data-t="80">for listening to Bitcoin podcasts?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-83" data-t="83">Like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-84" data-t="84">what are we like, we went from, like, discovering flight in the early nineteen hundreds to jumbo jets</span> <span class="cue" id="t-89" data-t="89">forty years later.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-91">1:31</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-91" data-t="91">And this seems like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-93" data-t="93">for the user experience on the listener's perspective,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-96" data-t="96">a similar proportionate jump.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-99" data-t="99">But we're talking to, and you may have recognized him from Twitter,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-103" data-t="103">heavily armed clown goes by Hack.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-106" data-t="106">Heavily armed clown.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-108">1:48</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-108" data-t="108">It is an honor</span> <span class="cue" id="t-110" data-t="110">to be,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-111" data-t="111">to interview a a Bitcoin podcast OG.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-114" data-t="114">How are you doing today?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-116">1:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-116" data-t="116">Hey. Pleasure's mine. Yeah. Doing well. Do you</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-121">2:01</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-121" data-t="121">are you aware of the forty hours per week,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-125" data-t="125">initiative that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-127" data-t="127">people are are following the routine? Are you do you listen to forty hours of Bitcoin podcast per week? Hashtag 40 HPW.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-135">2:15</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-135" data-t="135">So, I mean, I I front loaded my time. Right? So what I found that you could do pretty early on is that you could get in a hundred and sixty hours a week, and then you'd be able to take a few weeks off. So I just</span> <span class="cue" id="t-146" data-t="146">did a few thousand hours, like, in the first couple years, and I've just been coasting. That's what a lot of people do. Right? Like, not even just with podcasts.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-155">2:35</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-155" data-t="155">They they get in, like, you know, you get in before 2017</span> <span class="cue" id="t-159" data-t="159">into Bitcoin,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-160" data-t="160">and you just stack your ass off,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-162" data-t="162">listen to podcasts.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-164" data-t="164">You'd be like, dear. You just you're retired. You're sitting by the pool all day calling Corey Clipston a scammer, calling Shinobi a cock to David Bailey,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-175" data-t="175">laughing as these,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-176">2:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-176" data-t="176">pathetic,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-177" data-t="177">you know, plebes as he would call us,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-180" data-t="180">you know, have to work every day when he's just live driving his Jaguar,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-185" data-t="185">sitting by the pool with his wife getting stoned,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-188" data-t="188">you know, you could do that with podcasts too. If you really put in the work and the dedication,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-195" data-t="195">you're like speeding up time</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-197">3:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-197" data-t="197">and you're retiring</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-199">3:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-199" data-t="199">early. You're retiring from having to, you know, do mental labor. I think one of the things that's important for our audience to know that hasn't met hack yet</span> <span class="cue" id="t-208" data-t="208">might not be unaware. If you if you're not aware, you need to listen to more podcasts. But,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-216" data-t="216">you are one of the pioneer</span> <span class="cue" id="t-217" data-t="217">Bitcoin podcasters.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-220" data-t="220">You helped create many of the memes upon which we've built on as Bitcoin podcasters.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-226" data-t="226">You set the foundation.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-230">3:50</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-230" data-t="230">You set the foundation. You were an early pioneer out there working where there were very few Bitcoin podcasters.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-236" data-t="236">Paper Bitcoin</span> <span class="cue" id="t-238" data-t="238">wasn't seen as a viable scaling,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-241" data-t="241">method to Bitcoin</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-243">4:03</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-243" data-t="243">yet. There was no Michael Saylor. Malcocks kept people from kept people from keeping their,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-250" data-t="250">coins on exchanges.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-251" data-t="251">People remember Malcocks. They respected it back then. Mhmm.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-255">4:15</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-255" data-t="255">Yeah. Back when people were begging Joe Rogan to have Bitcoin podcasters on their podcast on his podcast. Yeah. Yeah. And pretty much anytime</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-263">4:23</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-263" data-t="263">like, it's not like it is now because now it's like everybody is super numb to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-268" data-t="268">anything that happens in Bitcoin. Like, the stuff that happens today, we would have killed</span> <span class="cue" id="t-273" data-t="273">to have hap like, a a normal news day in Bitcoin in 2025, we would have killed</span> <span class="cue" id="t-279" data-t="279">to have a single day like that in an entire year. Like, it</span> <span class="cue" id="t-283" data-t="283">but now we get those, like, every day. And it's like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-287" data-t="287">we we used to freak out when, like,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-289">4:49</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-289" data-t="289">some big influential person would even just mention the word Bitcoin. Like, because that that was, like, a talking point. That was news. That was something to be like, oh, it's only a matter of time. You know?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-300" data-t="300">Enough people mention it, and people are like, Bitcoin, what is that? No one knows. Right? It's like but to us, that was a big deal because it was, like, relevancy.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-309" data-t="309">Right? It's like, we're just desperate for relevancy. Give us scraps of relevance. Validation. We wanna be validated. And and then there was no institutional interest either. Like, it was it was a lot of, like yeah. You know, you you get your Bitcoin and you get it off the exchange,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-323" data-t="323">and that's that's that's it. Like, that's all there is. That's your only option. Otherwise, you're gonna get wrecked.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-328">5:28</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-328" data-t="328">That was the only user experience that anybody, you know, but</span> <span class="cue" id="t-333" data-t="333">the one of the things, the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-336" data-t="336">the memes back on, you didn't have Sailor.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-339" data-t="339">Like,</span> <span class="cue" data-t="339">how many how many engagements do you think he could have got if you had Saylor thumbnails on YouTube back in 2017?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-347">5:47</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-347" data-t="347">I mean, none because no one know who he was. Right? Like, Saylor was a nobody until,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-353" data-t="353">like, he he</span> <span class="cue" id="t-354" data-t="354">got interested in Bitcoin.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-356" data-t="356">And he blew up because Bitcoiners were so desperate for a hero. Like, Bitcoiners were so desperate for anybody with</span> <span class="cue" id="t-364" data-t="364">any established credibility</span> <span class="cue" id="t-366" data-t="366">that this guy showed up running a you know, it's I'm not trying to say that he was a failure because by all means, like, I think he was already a billionaire. If not a billionaire, a very wealthy, successful individual in his own right. Right? But he wasn't like</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-381">6:21</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-381" data-t="381">he wasn't like, there's a difference between, like, a a successful entrepreneur</span> <span class="cue" id="t-385" data-t="385">and, like, a a multibillionaire.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-388" data-t="388">Right? Like, we're talking about</span> <span class="cue" id="t-390" data-t="390">a pretty significant difference in magnitude. And Saylor went really quickly from just being, like, a a very successful guy</span> <span class="cue" id="t-397" data-t="397">to a to, like, a god,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-399" data-t="399">because</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-400">6:40</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-400" data-t="400">he entered Bitcoin, made it really, really clear to everybody in the space that he had resources, he was intelligent, he had a platform, and he had a plan. And he was gonna put that plan that he wasn't just showing up and talking. He showed up and, like, put that plan into action really quickly.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-416" data-t="416">And</span> <span class="cue" id="t-418" data-t="418">in the process of doing that, like, brought a lot of new interest into Bitcoin. So it kinda became, like, a patriarchal figure,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-425" data-t="425">but it also lent itself, like, well really well to his own success. Right? I mean, I think he's</span> <span class="cue" id="t-432" data-t="432">it it's obvious that if you look at, like, what Saylor has done since he entered Bitcoin in, like, 2020,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-438">7:18</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-438" data-t="438">The man has the man has crushed it. I mean, unbelievably so. Yeah. I think the point I was trying to make, which I I think</span> <span class="cue" id="t-446" data-t="446">you're explaining here a little bit is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-450" data-t="450">Michael Saylor has been has been great for Bitcoin podcasters.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-455" data-t="455">Thanks to Michael Saylor, thanks to the interest he's brought in</span> <span class="cue" id="t-459" data-t="459">to the space, into</span> <span class="cue" id="t-461" data-t="461">the the the timeline</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-463">7:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-463" data-t="463">because like we've kind of merged</span> <span class="cue" id="t-466" data-t="466">with the main mainstream</span> <span class="cue" id="t-467" data-t="467">news</span> <span class="cue" id="t-468" data-t="468">political timeline,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-471" data-t="471">and he's helped</span> <span class="cue" id="t-472" data-t="472">create that and you helped create so many Bitcoin podcasters</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-476">7:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-476" data-t="476">and it's like, do you, do Bitcoin podcasters owe Michael Sailor a debt of gratitude</span> <span class="cue" id="t-482" data-t="482">for launching their careers</span> <span class="cue" id="t-484" data-t="484">for I mean, Natalie Brunel,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-486" data-t="486">why did you know, nobody would know who she is today if it wasn't for Michael Saylor.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-490">8:10</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-490" data-t="490">I I think every Bitcoin</span> <span class="cue" id="t-492" data-t="492">podcaster owes Michael Saylor</span> <span class="cue" id="t-495" data-t="495">a a penance. You know, I I think that a small percentage of every Bitcoin podcaster's revenue should go straight into Michael Saylor's pocket. Like a tithe, you know, 10% in a split on time. To the pope. Right? Right.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-508">8:28</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-508" data-t="508">Taey is kinda like our pope. If if we had a pope,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-511" data-t="511">would it be Michael Sailor, or would it be Samson Mao?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-514" data-t="514">Samson Mao is a big influencer too, but he's got more of that international</span> <span class="cue" id="t-519" data-t="519">political</span> <span class="cue" id="t-520" data-t="520">pull.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-521">8:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-521" data-t="521">I don't know. How do you do what do you think about that? But, like, the difference between, like, Samson Mao and Sailor is that Sailor is untainted. Right? Like, Samsung Mau</span> <span class="cue" id="t-529" data-t="529">was, like I agree. Samsung's tainted. Been in crypto for a long time. Right? Like, I remember I'm old enough to remember when Samsung Mau was part of the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-536" data-t="536">what was it called? Like, the the crypto happy crypto friends or some stupid shit like that. It was, like, fluffy pony and Samsung Mao. Yeah. Like, they had, like, all these stupid little animal avatars, and they were just always talking about stupid crypto scams that lost everybody involved</span> <span class="cue" id="t-551" data-t="551">other than the, like, lead promoters and</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-554">9:14</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-554" data-t="554">founders. They're worse than Oodie.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-556">9:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-556" data-t="556">Yeah. And I'm so, like, in my mind in my mind, when I look at when I think of Samsung, I always think of the happy crypto friends or whatever it was. But, like, in say Sailor's Untainted. Right? Like, he entered the space as an as a ghost</span> <span class="cue" id="t-570" data-t="570">without having</span> <span class="cue" id="t-571" data-t="571">ever promoted Ethereum or something dumb</span> <span class="cue" id="t-574" data-t="574">and just, like, went</span> <span class="cue" id="t-576" data-t="576">put the put the pedal to the floor on Bitcoin, which is like and and Bitcoiners really, really wanted, like, a hero. You know what I mean? Like, they they really, really wanted</span> <span class="cue" id="t-586" data-t="586">someone to come in that they could, like, just lavish with with praise and attention.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-592">9:52</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-592" data-t="592">Yeah. Because their Bitcoin has no leader. Right? So, like, everybody's, like, desperate for that. Bitcoin Bitcoin needed a Dennis Porter.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-599" data-t="599">Oh, absolutely. Yeah.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-600" data-t="600">Yeah.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-602">10:02</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-602" data-t="602">So what was Bitcoin what was Bitcoin like Dennis Porter? What are the biggest or pre Dennis Porter? What are the biggest differences in those?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-611">10:11</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-611" data-t="611">You know, it was a lot less attractive, but it was also a lot more interesting. How did you have sex with your wife before,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-617" data-t="617">Dennis Porter? I didn't. That's rough.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-620" data-t="620">I mean,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-621" data-t="621">it is what it is.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-623">10:23</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-623" data-t="623">Well,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-624" data-t="624">you know, you talk we talk about lower time for reference all the time,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-628" data-t="628">and you were just explaining it. You used to have to wait</span> <span class="cue" id="t-632" data-t="632">a year</span> <span class="cue" id="t-633" data-t="633">to get a new really good Bitcoin meme. I mean, you might get one, it's like you might have to wait a long time before,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-640" data-t="640">having sex with your wife before Dennis Porter. But thanks to Dennis Porter,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-644">10:44</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-644" data-t="644">now you can get a good meme multiple times a day, and you can have sex with your wife multiple times a day. Yeah. I've never thought about it like that</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-652">10:52</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-652" data-t="652">till just now. It's incredible how Dennis Porter saves so many marriages, which is gonna lead to more children, more orange filled children.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-659">10:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-659" data-t="659">That's good. We we we need to fix the, declining</span> <span class="cue" id="t-663" data-t="663">fertility rates anyway, so</span> <span class="cue" id="t-665" data-t="665">I'm all for it. And that's true.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-668">11:08</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-668" data-t="668">You know, and the one the one more thing when it comes to these influencers</span> <span class="cue" id="t-672" data-t="672">between Sampson</span> <span class="cue" id="t-673" data-t="673">and Michael Saylor</span> <span class="cue" id="t-675" data-t="675">is if you're in doubt, just look at,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-678" data-t="678">Michael Saylor wears the same Bitcoin t shirt every time he's in a picture</span> <span class="cue" id="t-682" data-t="682">and Samson Mauer is the same Tether t shirt. Michael Saylor is the Pope</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-688">11:28</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-688" data-t="688">of of Bitcoin, and Samson is the, you know, the emperor of Tether.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-693">11:33</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-693" data-t="693">He's like their mascot. I wonder I'm sure that that has something to do with,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-697">11:37</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-697" data-t="697">who pays the bills. Yes. Samson was getting really upset this week that people were calling him an influencer. I'm not really sure why.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-704" data-t="704">He was, like, treating it as if it was,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-707" data-t="707">an insult</span> <span class="cue" id="t-708" data-t="708">to him.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-709">11:49</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-709" data-t="709">I don't think anybody wants to be</span> <span class="cue" id="t-712" data-t="712">considered an influencer.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-713" data-t="713">Like, even the people that make a living being an influencer, I think</span> <span class="cue" id="t-718" data-t="718">because there's just connotations with that word. Like, nobody wants people wanna be thought of, like, as a thought leader or, like, like, a journalist or, like, a researcher or or, like, an analyst. They wanna be anything other than an influencer.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-733">12:13</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-733" data-t="733">Right. This is just the same as, like, twenty, thirty years ago. People didn't wanna be a role model, and people say you if you're famous, if you're an athlete, if you won the Super Bowl, it is your duty as a, you're a role model to people. And it's like, I, I didn't ask to be a role model and people just, they don't wanna be an influencer. I was like, you're an influencer. It's your duty</span> <span class="cue" id="t-756" data-t="756">to tell us which hardware wallet that we should use. And it's like, I don't know enough about these hardware wallets to tell to give you a confident answer that you're not gonna get rugged.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-765" data-t="765">And</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-766">12:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-766" data-t="766">buy it. Well, there's that, but then it's also, like, there's the incentive</span> <span class="cue" id="t-770" data-t="770">to monetize your audience too.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-773">12:53</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-773" data-t="773">Like, it it's Yeah. You didn't ask to have the audience, but once you've got them, you might as well fucking get money out of them.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-779">12:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-779" data-t="779">I suppose. I I've never really been super comfortable with that. I have I have run some</span> <span class="cue" id="t-785" data-t="785">like, part of the reason that I've always kind of, like, shied away from public attention is because the temptation to monetize the attention is always there. And, like, I've never add I don't so, like, when I like, I can remember, like, in 2017</span> <span class="cue" id="t-799" data-t="799">when I was, like, still figuring out crypto. Like, I was really apt to talk about everything that I was interested in, and lots of those things had referral links. So there was, like, a brief period of time when I was, like, looking at Bitconnect and, like, well, hey. If Bitconnect works,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-815" data-t="815">you know, use my referral link, and you can make money on BitConnect and cloud mining. Like, I lost a crap ton of money on cloud mining.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-822" data-t="822">But there were, like, these guys on YouTube.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-825">13:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-825" data-t="825">There was this kid named CryptoNick in, like, 2017, and he would make these videos</span> <span class="cue" id="t-830" data-t="830">where he would just, like, pull up his cloud mining dashboard and show you how much money he made that day,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-836" data-t="836">how much money he's making from referrals to to HashFlare.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-839" data-t="839">And then, like, he would just take all of his earnings that he made from that day, which would be, like, thousands of dollars, and invest them in more contracts in the platform. And you'd watch all his numbers go up, and you're just like, this is insane. Like, this kid's making, like, hundreds of thousand dollars a year. I wanna do this. And he it it was a it was a it was a Ponzi. I mean, it was just a rug. Right? Right. Some people avoid that when they first come in and some people don't. And, yeah, there's, like, this this tendency to, like, think that you can make a quick buck on your audience with no repercussions, and you can end up recommending things that that get people hurt. Like, that's that's a real risk.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-875">14:35</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-875" data-t="875">Did you,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-877" data-t="877">did you reach out and offer any words of encouragement and advice to Robert Breedlove</span> <span class="cue" id="t-884" data-t="884">after he, embarrassed himself with the bit clout?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-889" data-t="889">You know, post, how does the free market feel about bit clout? Did you did you let him know that he should step back and kind of resist that temptation</span> <span class="cue" id="t-898" data-t="898">to rug pull his audience?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-902">15:02</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-902" data-t="902">No. Did he, you know, was he receptive to them? No. I think he knows what he did.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-906" data-t="906">I think he doesn't care. But, I mean, like, I'm not really I'm not really friends with him or anything. So Well, I wish I was. Curious. I'm curious, Hack. So what what can you</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-917">15:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-917" data-t="917">define for me,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-919" data-t="919">based on just the way you see things, the difference between</span> <span class="cue" id="t-923" data-t="923">a a thought leader and a and an influencer?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-926">15:26</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-926" data-t="926">Oh, I don't really think that there is a difference. I think people just don't like to be,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-931" data-t="931">I the people don't like the connotation. They don't like to be so, like, little kids wanna be influencers, but, like, grown adults, they're serious people. Like, they they're not influencers. Right? They're experts. Like, they're they're experts. They're thought leaders. Like, influencers such a dirty word. Right?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-947">15:47</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-947" data-t="947">Bitcoin podcast is not influencers.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-950">15:50</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-950" data-t="950">At the end of the day, everybody with an audience, like, if you have one one follower, assuming it's a real person, like, in some way, shape, or form, everything that you create, everything that you post, everything that you put out is gonna influence that audience, you know, maybe not directly</span> <span class="cue" id="t-965" data-t="965">to get them to believe exactly what you say. Right? But you're another</span> <span class="cue" id="t-969" data-t="969">piece of information that they have</span> <span class="cue" id="t-971" data-t="971">to filter and digest,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-973" data-t="973">and that is going to influence. So an influencer is just somebody that has influence on others kinda engaging in the public debate. Yeah. I think it's tough to say, like, at what point do you become an influencer? Like, how do you go from being,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-986" data-t="986">like, a nobody to an influencer? Like, what is the bar? The man I don't think there's a good answer to that. It's kind of like a spectrum.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-994">16:34</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-994" data-t="994">Because what yeah. It's a it's a vector. Like, you know, Michael Seo talks about. Inflation is a vector depending on, like, your position. But it's like you could be a huge influencer in the Amish community,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1004" data-t="1004">and, like, nobody's gonna know you outside the state. Well, I</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1008" data-t="1008">It's, like, not just the size.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1011" data-t="1011">It's also</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1013" data-t="1013">the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1015" data-t="1015">like, the</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1016">16:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1016" data-t="1016">this value of your</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1018" data-t="1018">how much people believe you. That's why your cult people cult leaders are, like, micro influencers.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1023">17:03</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1023" data-t="1023">Well, everything has a community now too. Like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1026" data-t="1026">I was looking up a video not that long ago because I was I was grilling,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1030" data-t="1030">and,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1031" data-t="1031">I was trying to grill, like, a cut of meat that I had never grilled before. So I was looking up, like, a video to make sure that I didn't ruin it. And the the guy starts off the video, like, here in the grilling community, we always do this, this, and this. And I'm like, why does everything have to have a community? Like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1046" data-t="1046">why are a group of why is people that, like, grill meat in their backyard? How is that a community? Like, it's not a community. It's just what it's That's be that's be that's because you've never grilled forty forty burrs per week. It's true. Yeah. I've never I've never put in the time. But,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1063" data-t="1063">if the way I think about an influencer, like, if I were to have to try to nail it down would be somebody that</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1069">17:49</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1069" data-t="1069">pursues,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1071" data-t="1071">like, growth of their influence. Right? Like, the their their one of one of, like, their primary objectives</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1077" data-t="1077">is either growth hacking or inserting themselves into controversies or inserting themselves into contra conversations or, like, intentionally</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1086" data-t="1086">trying to, like, seek out and pull or reach latch themselves onto, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1092" data-t="1092">people that are higher up the influencer ladder than them so that they can grow their own</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1099" data-t="1099">pool of</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1100">18:20</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1100" data-t="1100">influencies,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1101" data-t="1101">so to speak.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1102" data-t="1102">That's that's, like, really, I think, the mentality that I think of when I think of influencers. If you can see if you can see a public count</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1110">18:30</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1110" data-t="1110">of their followers and downloads and it's going up over time, you should assume</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1115" data-t="1115">that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1116" data-t="1116">they are intentionally doing that. It's no it's no mistake. They are their influence is growing.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1123">18:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1123" data-t="1123">Yeah. Because, I mean, the algorithms fight people that, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1127" data-t="1127">are thoughtful</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1128" data-t="1128">and nuanced and,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1130" data-t="1130">don't pretend like they know everything. Right? Like, the most of the smartest people that I know, they will be some of the first people to tell you when they don't know the answer to something. But, like, most influencers,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1140" data-t="1140">they have to pretend to be experts, like, all the time. Right? They don't ever wanna give the impression that they don't already have all the answers. Like, they don't like to learn in public. And, of course, I'm generalizing. There might be some exceptions.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1153" data-t="1153">But the smartest people I know, they're, like, unafraid of being wrong. They're unafraid of, like, learning in public,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1159">19:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1159" data-t="1159">and they admit when, like, they don't know something. But you don't really see that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1163" data-t="1163">that that's not, like, a disturbing pattern that you see from people who are, like, pursuing</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1168" data-t="1168">influence. You know what I mean?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1170">19:30</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1170" data-t="1170">But you but you're describing Peter McCormick. Are you saying Peter McCormick is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1174" data-t="1174">one of the smartest men?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1176">19:36</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1176" data-t="1176">Peter McCormick is a marketing genius.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1180">19:40</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1180" data-t="1180">Okay. Yeah. I agree with that. He is he's got a journalist's heart. A journalist's soul.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1186" data-t="1186">And a pop what a he's he's a politician</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1189">19:49</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1189" data-t="1189">at at the same time. Yeah. But at the same time, like, I I think Peter is a marketing genius, but I don't, like, trust</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1195" data-t="1195">Peter's opinion on very many things. You get what I mean?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1199">19:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1199" data-t="1199">Totally. That's a right.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1201">20:01</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1201" data-t="1201">Well, I think I think this concept of what an influencer is is really important to hit for first principle. So I think Ron and I display some of the traits of,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1211" data-t="1211">influencers you described, but in other ways, we don't,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1216" data-t="1216">if that makes sense.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1218" data-t="1218">I think we're both trying to grow</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1221" data-t="1221">or influence as journalists. Like, you know, what are my objectives and goals? I want more people to read Ayn Rand and smoke cigarettes.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1230" data-t="1230">So I guess in some ways, I'm a cigarette influencer even though I I don't get paid by the cigarette companies.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1238">20:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1238" data-t="1238">I dream of a day where I get paid by Marlboro. Yeah. You'd think big tobacco would be all over that.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1244" data-t="1244">Well, I I think they're they're so limited. I mean, it's it's just there there's a a cabal,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1251">20:51</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1251" data-t="1251">to I mean, if they would just wanted to, if they just wanted to,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1256" data-t="1256">sponsor us, we wouldn't have to change anything</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1259" data-t="1259">we say on this podcast. We could just keep do speaking honestly. And that's the kind of sponsors we want. We don't have to read an ad for Marlboro cigarettes. We're already going to talk about Marlboro cigarettes because we're passionate about them. Yeah.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1274">21:14</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1274" data-t="1274">Yeah. I guess. I mean, I I don't know if I necessarily wanna take a sponsorship from them on on the podcast. But, yeah, maybe on, like, my Instagram or something as I'm as I'm influencing,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1285" data-t="1285">people smoke cigarettes over there. But,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1288" data-t="1288">so</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1290">21:30</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1290" data-t="1290">I I don't think it's possible to take money without developing a bias. Right? Like, it</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1295" data-t="1295">you you you might you might have someone approach you and offer you money.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1299" data-t="1299">They're like, you don't even have to read any ads. You just have to, like, put this sticker on your desk and make sure it's on the camera, like, every time you talk. But</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1308" data-t="1308">there's still there's still a bias there, like an internal bias, where you where you have to, like, think to yourself. Okay. This is a really good thing. I need to kinda make sure that I don't do do anything or say anything that these people would, like, cut ties with me over. Right? Even if you think it's the truth,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1325" data-t="1325">and and if you're reliant, like, on whatever that income stream is because you've built that up and that's, like, your livelihood,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1331" data-t="1331">you're you're you are gonna be conscious of that even if</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1335">22:15</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1335" data-t="1335">you're not, like, directly framing</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1337" data-t="1337">around it.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1339" data-t="1339">Like, nobody there's no such thing as, like, being non biased. Like, it's not possible. Everybody there there there is always bias of some kind.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1346">22:26</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1346" data-t="1346">Unless you're a conventional journalist.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1349">22:29</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1349" data-t="1349">Right. Right. They're naturally like, they're trained to be unbiased. Right? So Prudential. Yeah. Prudential journalist, we are</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1356">22:36</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1356" data-t="1356">we are</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1358" data-t="1358">forthright and transparent</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1360" data-t="1360">about our bias, which is that we're unbiased journalists.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1364" data-t="1364">So</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1365">22:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1365" data-t="1365">the diploma</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1366" data-t="1366">that you receive</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1368" data-t="1368">when you graduate journalism school,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1371" data-t="1371">it's kind of like a magical spell which falls over you,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1375" data-t="1375">which just removes it. It's like a rite of passage</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1380" data-t="1380">that that purifies</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1382">23:02</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1382" data-t="1382">your soul and ensures.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1384" data-t="1384">Well, there's there's also the chip that they put in your hand. Well, back back when I went to school, they didn't have that. Maybe maybe they do that now. Maybe technology is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1393" data-t="1393">rapidly improved since I was in school. It just gives a small small shock.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1399">23:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1399" data-t="1399">No big deal.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1401">23:21</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1401" data-t="1401">Like, when when a journalist</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1403" data-t="1403">potentially is tempted with bias, shocks Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just just like a small</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1408">23:28</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1408" data-t="1408">like, dog dog collar. Interesting.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1410">23:30</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1410" data-t="1410">Yeah. That's I mean, that's really interesting. But, yeah, like, keeping keeping on going down this first principle. So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1417" data-t="1417">I mean, I agree with you. I mean, that's why that's why I've struggled structured the bugle to be,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1421" data-t="1421">value for value driven. I think that's really important.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1426" data-t="1426">It doesn't necessarily fix</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1428" data-t="1428">all of the incentives, but I think it kind of eliminates the temptation</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1432" data-t="1432">to take the Tether money, if you know what I mean.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1436">23:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1436" data-t="1436">But, you know, like part of it has to do with like part of it just has to do with,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1441" data-t="1441">your sense of, like, self respect and and kind of sticking with your principles. But, you know, it it could principles can change, you know, when money gets involved. So it's a it's a constant battle</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1451" data-t="1451">to stay,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1455" data-t="1455">on the path, I would say.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1457" data-t="1457">But Yeah.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1458" data-t="1458">Anyways,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1460">24:20</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1460" data-t="1460">so I think there's a problem here. Right?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1463" data-t="1463">Which there's this stigma around the term influencer.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1467" data-t="1467">And there's a lot of people, you know, Samsung Mao being one of the prime examples,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1472" data-t="1472">that that need to be encouraged to just embrace their title as an influencer. Like, if somebody called me an influencer, I wouldn't be really offended.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1481" data-t="1481">I'm a I I'll I'll embrace it. Like, yeah, I'm influencing people who smoke cigarettes and read Iran,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1487" data-t="1487">listen to Bitcoin podcasts.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1491">24:51</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1491" data-t="1491">How do we address that stigma?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1494" data-t="1494">So these individuals</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1495" data-t="1495">like Joe Nakamoto,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1497" data-t="1497">Samson Mao, Nikko from Simply Bitcoin.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1500">25:00</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1500" data-t="1500">If you're in a niche long enough and you don't become an influencer, then you probably kinda suck. Right? I mean,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1506" data-t="1506">if</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1507" data-t="1507">if, like, if if you're just around long enough and and you don't build any kind of credibility or following whatsoever,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1515" data-t="1515">I think that that isn't necessarily good either. Right? Like, you don't wanna I mean, unless your objective is to just stay a gray man. Maybe you, like, delete your presence every couple years or something. This is, this is all, in my opinion,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1529">25:29</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1529" data-t="1529">rooted in anti Swanatism</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1532" data-t="1532">I think the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1534" data-t="1534">pejorative</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1535" data-t="1535">that influencer has become in our community is it's because it's, you know, it's associated with swanfluencers</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1542" data-t="1542">and I think that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1544" data-t="1544">the last cycle, the 2021,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1547">25:47</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1547" data-t="1547">2022</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1548" data-t="1548">cycle,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1550" data-t="1550">Swan pumped a lot of money</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1552" data-t="1552">into</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1553" data-t="1553">the space,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1555" data-t="1555">to influence it.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1556">25:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1556" data-t="1556">And</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1557" data-t="1557">I mean you go back to 2017</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1560" data-t="1560">your podcast days there was a lot more money than the previous few years,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1565" data-t="1565">but there wasn't that much money</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1567" data-t="1567">involved</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1568" data-t="1568">in care being having a stake in the future of Bitcoin but today</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1573">26:13</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1573" data-t="1573">there has never ever been more. I mean, it's like the White House is talking about the fact that it has a stake in Bitcoin today,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1582" data-t="1582">and now the biggest controversy</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1584" data-t="1584">is the Nazis</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1586" data-t="1586">versus</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1588" data-t="1588">the the Cornianists</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1589" data-t="1589">and they</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1590">26:30</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1590" data-t="1590">it's a battle of influencers.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1592">26:32</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1592" data-t="1592">It's influencers are battling it back and forth and mechanic loop. They're more powerful influencers than the quartets who are just they don't they're not very charismatic. Yeah. I mean but this is, like, a story as old as time. Right? I mean, we're having this battle on the Internet today, but, I mean, they were influencers two hundred years ago that were</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1610" data-t="1610">trying to convince people one way or another on a certain thing and and may have had certain interests that were influencing those</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1616" data-t="1616">those talking points.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1618" data-t="1618">And maybe</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1620" data-t="1620">they were even being paid to say certain things.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1622" data-t="1622">I don't I don't think that that's particularly</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1624">27:04</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1624" data-t="1624">new. But, like, I think what the Internet has done is made it, like, more transparent. Like, it's way more obvious now, I think, when someone is a paid shill,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1633" data-t="1633">than it would have been, like, even fifty years ago.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1635" data-t="1635">Like, I I think that a lot of, like, the boomers grew up in a world that they thought was, like, fair and balanced and unbiased and without blemish.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1642" data-t="1642">Maybe not perfect. Right? But, like, they really they but, like, they could turn on their television and choose between, like, three channels.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1649" data-t="1649">So they were like, well, this is the truth. I mean, because they wouldn't put it on TV if it wasn't true. And now it's like, we we have so many,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1657" data-t="1657">so so many more options for where we access information that if we're, like, relatively prudent and we're not just, like, stupid sheep, we can kinda, like, feel people out and be like, okay. I think that this guy is just, like, saying what he's paid to say versus like, oh Yeah. These guys are at least at least trying to be critical</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1674">27:54</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1674" data-t="1674">and examine with, like, a critical eye or something.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1678">27:58</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1678" data-t="1678">Influence has been decentralized.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1680">28:00</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1680" data-t="1680">Yeah. I would agree with that. Yeah.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1683" data-t="1683">And And tomorrow But which is a good thing, I would say.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1687">28:07</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1687" data-t="1687">It's my I I totally</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1689" data-t="1689">agree with what you're saying and it is my personal belief</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1695" data-t="1695">that every it's so easy to be an influencer these days. It's so cheap it's so you all you need is to have a phone and you you can have a phone where you can have Bitcoin in the world which is virtually everywhere</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1707" data-t="1707">and you can become an influencer that way</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1709" data-t="1709">and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1710" data-t="1710">most people are just being</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1712">28:32</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1712" data-t="1712">lazy</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1714" data-t="1714">with the same old shitty, same in the same old memes, recycling the same old memes,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1719" data-t="1719">saying the same old things,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1721" data-t="1721">and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1722" data-t="1722">I think that it's your duty</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1725" data-t="1725">as an influencer as a journalist</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1728">28:48</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1728" data-t="1728">is to catch people's attention but actually like</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1731" data-t="1731">show them that you're putting effort into it and that this is, this was made,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1736" data-t="1736">this was published with care like I can publish anything but I publish this</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1741" data-t="1741">this crazy headline.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1743" data-t="1743">And, you know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1745" data-t="1745">if you're gonna influence at least of give them the value of entertaining them with your don't just give them AI slop. I don't know.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1753">29:13</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1753" data-t="1753">Like, recycling's good. Yeah. It's better. It's more.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1756">29:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1756" data-t="1756">What what's always driven me to,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1759" data-t="1759">like, what's always driven me to, like, a place of in wanting more influence is just,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1764" data-t="1764">being dissatisfied with, like, whatever the status quo is and, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1769" data-t="1769">wanting</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1770" data-t="1770">to have more people think about something differently.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1773" data-t="1773">Like</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1774">29:34</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1774" data-t="1774">like, with with Bitcoin, it really kinda started with, like, being dissatisfied with with economics and geopolitics</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1780" data-t="1780">and just being like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1781" data-t="1781">I need to try to be a part of this conversation, and I need to try to get more people</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1787" data-t="1787">listening and talking about these problems. Because if I don't, you know, it won't I'll be eating mealworms soon.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1795" data-t="1795">So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1797" data-t="1797">and, like, even now, like, as I find myself kind of returning to</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1800">30:00</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1800" data-t="1800">some of the the public eye in Bitcoin, it's for the same reasons. It's because, like, I I see stuff that I'm like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1806" data-t="1806">I would much rather be, like, coding right now because, like, think I can have, like, a</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1811" data-t="1811">a bigger impact,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1814" data-t="1814">on the world Yeah. By, like, building stuff. But at the same time, there's still, like, battles to fight in the information space too that I think are important. So it, like, sucks me back in. And I know that it sounds, like, super altruistic, but it it really is what motivates me.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1828">30:28</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1828" data-t="1828">Well, I mean, I think it's,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1831" data-t="1831">you kinda have to do it in yourself in own self interest to propagate your own memes.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1836" data-t="1836">And I think there's</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1838" data-t="1838">multiple strategies around it, right? So, there's the strategy of</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1843" data-t="1843">you're putting up a signal to find like minded people</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1846" data-t="1846">and then there's also the strategy of</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1850">30:50</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1850" data-t="1850">trying to convince somebody of a different perspective. Right. Yeah.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1854">30:54</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1854" data-t="1854">You could you could say that that's, like, the difference between, like, your rhetoric and your dialectic. Like, you're you've got your memes, which are just so, like they're like the</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1862" data-t="1862">the hand grenades that you just throw out to get attention, and then you've got, like, the dialectic, which is the real conversation you only have with the people that have, like, demonstrated that they're there for it. You know?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1873" data-t="1873">Yeah.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1875">31:15</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1875" data-t="1875">You know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1877" data-t="1877">the last thing I had about the influencer</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1879" data-t="1879">topic is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1880" data-t="1880">you've said,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1882" data-t="1882">multiple times in the episode so far that you, you know, kinda hesitant</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1887" data-t="1887">to</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1888">31:28</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1888" data-t="1888">you to build an audience that you could potentially exploit, like you didn't want to be an influencer</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1894" data-t="1894">and you, you know, your in your persona online is a heavily armed clown.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1899" data-t="1899">It's,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1900" data-t="1900">it's kind of like screaming, don't,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1903">31:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1903" data-t="1903">don't let me influence you. Yeah. Don't take me seriously.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1906">31:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1906" data-t="1906">Despite all of that, despite all that, I this is a true story. I was listening to a podcast and they were interviewing Cedric Younglman,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1914" data-t="1914">who is the, host of the Bitcoin Matrix. And he's one of the top, you know, top 10 podcast Bitcoin podcasts these days. He's a good guy. You know, some some weeks. Yeah. And he literally said he was talking about his orange billing story and he said he was on the Internet</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1929" data-t="1929">and he kept seeing these posts from heavily armed clown</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1933" data-t="1933">saying if they don't buy Bitcoin, I'm a fucking idiot and I'm gonna have fun staying poor and he's like I I</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1940" data-t="1940">was mad at heavily armed cloud. I wanted to tell him he was wrong, but I I couldn't I didn't know how to how to to to,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1948" data-t="1948">counter any of his arguments. So Cedric Dongle became orange pilled in part</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1953">32:33</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1953" data-t="1953">and eventually became a Bitcoin podcaster in part to the influence you had on him back in 2020.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1960" data-t="1960">So,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1961" data-t="1961">you know, if it's, you know, it's,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-1963" data-t="1963">you can't help it.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-1965">32:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-1965" data-t="1965">Sometimes you watch you're just gonna be an influencer to somebody. Yeah. I mean, I mean and that's, like, super humbling to me. Right? Because I'm sure that whatever tweet he's talking about was I was probably, like, I had had, like, one too many whiskeys, and I was, like, just pissed off. I was like, I felt like no one cared and, like, I was just obscure, and nothing I tweeted mattered anyway. So I might as well just, like, say whatever I can say that when they upset people that see it. Right? Because I just I want you to know that I'm mad at you because you don't care about this. And it I mean, you know, it worked. Right? And we had that same that same kinda thing happened with the with the WTF happened in 1971</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2000" data-t="2000">thing. Right? It's like it started as just</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2003" data-t="2003">me and Ben.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2004" data-t="2004">We had, like, this personal collection of charts</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2007" data-t="2007">that we would just</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2008" data-t="2008">reference whenever we would get get into autistic arguments with other people online, where we'd be, like, arguing about</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2016">33:36</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2016" data-t="2016">economic principles or whatever. And then I was like, Ben, let's just take all these charts and, like, put them on a website so that it's really easy for us to just, like, point people to them whenever we're in these stupid debates with with these people. And then I was like, what if we just, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2031" data-t="2031">what if we just, like, put a bunch of these charts up there and then we just, like, made it an open ended question? And we didn't we didn't do any</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2038" data-t="2038">editorializing at all. We just, like, left the question open.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2042" data-t="2042">It it would be, like, super</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2044" data-t="2044">subversive, and people would be like, oh, what the heck?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2047" data-t="2047">And that and that was, like, a kind of like an accident,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2050">34:10</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2050" data-t="2050">because it because I I didn't put any more thought into it than that. It was just, okay. We should just do this, and it just, like, caught on. And I know for a fact that that meme,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2061" data-t="2061">I've I've gone, like, out of my way not to try to, like, police the conversation around that meme. So, like, I, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2067" data-t="2067">have interacted with every mention of that website since the day that it was launched, like, on Twitter and and pretty much various places around the Internet too because I I backtrack all the hits to the website and, like, just just to see the conversations, just to see what people are saying about it.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2082" data-t="2082">And I have always had to fight the temptation to ever try to, like, jump into the conversation and be like, no. You're wrong. It was about the gold standard. It's not Disney World or the hippies or, like, whatever you think it was.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2093" data-t="2093">Because I just wanna, like, let people ask the question. Right? And, like, there's a really powerful</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2099">34:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2099" data-t="2099">aspect of just getting people to ask the right question because our tendency is to always wanna give them the right answer.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2105" data-t="2105">But with a lot of people, if you can just, like, shake them enough to get them to ask the right question, like, they'll eventually find the right answer. And if they don't, well, then they're, like, not really a part of the group of people that you're gonna really want here in the early days anyway.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2119" data-t="2119">I think yeah.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2121">35:21</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2121" data-t="2121">I've got a major complaint about your website,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2123" data-t="2123">first and foremost, because I I I kind of,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2127" data-t="2127">like see the value of</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2130" data-t="2130">focusing</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2132" data-t="2132">on the removal of the gold standard.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2135" data-t="2135">But something that you and Ben have not considered, which I think is really important to consider,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2142">35:42</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2142" data-t="2142">is when did all the smoking bans start to get implemented?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2146">35:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2146" data-t="2146">It was 1970, right? Yeah.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2149">35:49</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2149" data-t="2149">Roughly that time, 1970, 1971.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2152">35:52</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2152" data-t="2152">Yeah. There was a lot of, like, structural societal change, like, in 1970. There was, like, a no fault divorce law that Reagan passed. There was,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2160" data-t="2160">the WEF was founded. There was all kinds of, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2164" data-t="2164">really interesting</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2166" data-t="2166">structural societal shifts that happened, like, right around that same time. So, like, nothing happens in a vacuum. Right? So it's, like, actually really silly to say that everything on that website is attributable to the gold standard. Like, that's obviously stupid. That's that's just it's just a meme. Right? It's like</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2181" data-t="2181">it's a meme Because</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2183" data-t="2183">that hyperbolizes</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2184">36:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2184" data-t="2184">the the issue just to get people to, like, just to, like, lead a horse to water. And I think the the broccoli haircuts, it it's more,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2192">36:32</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2192" data-t="2192">relatable to them to think about Bitcoin because I think we're looking back at 1971</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2198" data-t="2198">and you've obviously been 1971,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2200" data-t="2200">Pilp, like this is like a, like this meme</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2203" data-t="2203">was the biggest meme,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2207" data-t="2207">it, like, in your time And now I think we're gonna look back at it and be like</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2212" data-t="2212">'19 what the fuck happened in 1971?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2216">36:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2216" data-t="2216">That was the year that Bitcoin had already won That's when we knew 1971</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2220" data-t="2220">that's when Bitcoin was inevitable</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2222" data-t="2222">It was the butterfly</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2224" data-t="2224">wing that flapped and it created a wave that led to Satterjee,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2229" data-t="2229">publishing the white paper. You know? I think Nixon Gold was just</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2233" data-t="2233">a thing Nixon knew.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2235">37:15</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2235" data-t="2235">Nixon told</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2236">37:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2236" data-t="2236">him. Yeah. Nixon's</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2238" data-t="2238">responsible for Bitcoin when it it's pretty incredible to think about.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2242" data-t="2242">Takes a lot of foresight. Do you think that's why the CIA freaked out and,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2247" data-t="2247">tried to screw him with Watergate?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2250">37:30</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2250" data-t="2250">That has to be. That's always what I've thought.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2252">37:32</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2252" data-t="2252">So the deep state. The deep state is probably</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2256" data-t="2256">at</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2257" data-t="2257">open conflict,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2259" data-t="2259">with the president now than they were back in,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2263" data-t="2263">Nixon's days,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2264" data-t="2264">but</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2265">37:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2265" data-t="2265">I</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2266" data-t="2266">think</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2267">37:47</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2267" data-t="2267">do you think what do you think is gonna happen there? This is a chance</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2271" data-t="2271">for Trump to implement a Bitcoin standard to defeat the CIA, just like he went on predicted?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2277">37:57</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2277" data-t="2277">You know, I don't know. I could I could really only guess, like, what what a politician is gonna do.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2283" data-t="2283">I lizard people are gonna do lizard people things, and politicians are gonna do political things, and,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2288" data-t="2288">individuals are gonna do, like, whatever's in their own best interests. So,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2292" data-t="2292">you know, it it's certainly interesting. Right? It's like I I feel like more so lately than</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2297" data-t="2297">in a while. I wake up every day not really sure, like, what what's gonna happen this week. So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2303" data-t="2303">I don't really have, like, you know, I don't really know what what what comes next.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2308">38:28</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2308" data-t="2308">I just try to focus on the stuff that, like, I do know and that I do have control over. How do you feel about</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2314">38:34</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2314" data-t="2314">should we or should we not</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2316" data-t="2316">orange pill lizard people? Can they be orange pill? Mhmm.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2319">38:39</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2319" data-t="2319">Yeah. I I think anybody can be orange pilled. I mean, it's it's just pragmatic.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2324" data-t="2324">So Dennis Porter could be orange pilling lizard people. Do you think that's a good or bad thing? Do you think that we want orange pilled lizard people? I don't think it like, it it doesn't really matter whether or not I think it's good or bad. Like, it just is. Right? It's because it's pragmatic. Right? Do I think Yeah. Should lizard people be allowed to drive cars because it gets them to their destination to do lizard people stuff faster? Like, no. But it doesn't matter because I can't stop them from driving cars. And I wouldn't wanna, like, make cars illegal. Right? So, I mean,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2351" data-t="2351">it just it just is.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2354">39:14</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2354" data-t="2354">Reggie ran knots, you might be able to</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2356">39:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2356" data-t="2356">mitigate it. I should we should get the lizard people to run knots. That's a good idea. Do you think they're not already? Yeah. I think that they probably are. Well,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2365">39:25</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2365" data-t="2365">I guess this is the time in the episode where we talk about the the tiresome subject</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2371" data-t="2371">at hand,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2372" data-t="2372">the Nazis versus the corniness. So from from my understanding, you're you're kind of aligned with me. So Rod Rod flagged support for,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2382" data-t="2382">the the Nazis</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2384" data-t="2384">on last week's episode.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2385" data-t="2385">It wasn't like a hard support, and I I seem to be a little bit more aligned with the the core minist myself, but it sounds like you're a little bit more aligned with the core minist. I was watching your,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2396">39:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2396" data-t="2396">bit with the Wiki today</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2398" data-t="2398">Mhmm. On Twitter.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2400">39:60</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2400" data-t="2400">Yeah. I mean, so I would say</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2402" data-t="2402">I would say that, as far as the ethos goes of the</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2407" data-t="2407">Nazis,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2409" data-t="2409">I would say</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2411" data-t="2411">so, yeah, I hope no one I I don't wanna even say that because if someone clips this out of context, this can be like, oh, he says he's on board with the Nazis.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2419" data-t="2419">I don't need that in my life. But</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2421">40:21</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2421" data-t="2421">as far as the users of the Bitcoin implementation</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2424" data-t="2424">known as not go,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2426" data-t="2426">I think that as far as, like, their ethos goes, like, it feels</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2430" data-t="2430">to me like none of these people</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2433" data-t="2433">are like, these people want the same thing that I want. Right? They want</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2437" data-t="2437">Bitcoin to succeed as money, and they want it to be usable,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2441">40:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2441" data-t="2441">and they wanna protect this very precious thing that we have that is enabling</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2445" data-t="2445">global monetary</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2446" data-t="2446">freedom and a and a restructuring</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2448" data-t="2448">of,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2450" data-t="2450">the economic</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2451" data-t="2451">disorder.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2453">40:53</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2453" data-t="2453">What I where I disagree with them is just in</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2456" data-t="2456">how they propose we</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2458" data-t="2458">we go about,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2460" data-t="2460">implementing that. Right? It's like, I I think everybody in Bitcoin, whether you're running knots or running Bitcoin core, like, you agree that there's a problem and you agree that this thing called Bitcoin fixes it and you agree that this thing should be protected.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2473" data-t="2473">What I see when I look at the the two different</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2476" data-t="2476">implementations is a divergence in design philosophy.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2479">41:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2479" data-t="2479">And</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2481" data-t="2481">from a software perspective,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2483" data-t="2483">I am aligned</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2485" data-t="2485">a 100% with Bitcoin Core. I think that the</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2488" data-t="2488">efforts</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2491" data-t="2491">of</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2491">41:31</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" data-t="2491">the the entire design direction</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2494" data-t="2494">of knots is is flawed out of the gate. None of it's gonna accomplish anything, and where it leads is is really dangerous and is gonna get a lot of people involved,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2503">41:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2503" data-t="2503">hurt. Well, I wanna say real quick. I don't think you have to be worried about,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2507" data-t="2507">being associated with the Nazis because Kanye West flagged support</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2511" data-t="2511">for them</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2512" data-t="2512">and,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2513" data-t="2513">made it cool again.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2514">41:54</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2514" data-t="2514">True. Yeah. I know it's you can say that now.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2517">41:57</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2517" data-t="2517">Yeah.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2521" data-t="2521">I would my</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2523" data-t="2523">my response to that so I will take I like to say, I took the other side because it's it's about Bitcoin podcasters,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2530" data-t="2530">in in the intuition that's like</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2534" data-t="2534">the world right now,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2536" data-t="2536">the whole world</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2537">42:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2537" data-t="2537">has access to Bitcoin's time chain and at a pretty cheap price because block space is not expensive</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2543" data-t="2543">and the people, like Luke and and Mechanic, are right that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2548" data-t="2548">the world most of the people in the world are too retarded to deserve to use Bitcoin, and we need to keep the block small</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2555" data-t="2555">so that people who raise their kids on Bitcoin podcasts and who listen to forty hours per week and who orange bill people and who work with Dennis Porter and and pass strategic Bitcoin reserves,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2566" data-t="2566">that they will have access to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2569" data-t="2569">they'll be able to run nodes</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2571">42:51</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2571" data-t="2571">and they'll be able to,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2573" data-t="2573">have a really firm foundation of handsome transactions.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2576" data-t="2576">Is this about</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2579" data-t="2579">preservation</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2580" data-t="2580">for</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2581">43:01</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2581" data-t="2581">for the future? Because Yeah. Big players are hopeful. So I should clarify. So I think that the people that are following</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2587" data-t="2587">their lead for the most part,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2591" data-t="2591">I agree with their ethos. But as far as guys like Luke, I think that he knows better</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2596" data-t="2596">and that the stuff that he's trying to do, he knows isn't gonna work.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2601" data-t="2601">So I have to conclude that either he is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2604" data-t="2604">malicious</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2605">43:25</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2605" data-t="2605">or misguided</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2607" data-t="2607">and delusional</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2608" data-t="2608">or</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2609" data-t="2609">some other thing that works against</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2613" data-t="2613">my interests. So,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2615" data-t="2615">I I'm I'm confident enough in my technical understanding of, like, how these things work to know that, like, everything that Luke is proposing</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2624">43:44</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2624" data-t="2624">is not just an impossibility, but in many cases, it's like an obfuscation of what's true and how things actually work. So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2631" data-t="2631">what I think is going on is there's, like, a an attempt to, like, take advantage of,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2636" data-t="2636">users who,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2637" data-t="2637">you know, they want the right thing,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2640" data-t="2640">but they don't necessarily know the right way to get there. Yeah. So, essentially, you're saying that</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2645">44:05</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2645" data-t="2645">dunking your node</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2647" data-t="2647">in hydrogen peroxide</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2649" data-t="2649">won't</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2650" data-t="2650">but, like, that's not the best way to purify it. Well, so, like, I haven't I haven't tested it.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2656">44:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2656" data-t="2656">Right? So, like, I couldn't</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2658" data-t="2658">say for sure,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2659" data-t="2659">But I think if you did</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2661" data-t="2661">that, it would</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2663">44:23</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2663" data-t="2663">not work. And Luke disagrees.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2666">44:26</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2666" data-t="2666">Probably.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2667">44:27</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2667" data-t="2667">Yeah.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2669">44:29</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2669" data-t="2669">We'll have to do that in</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2670" data-t="2670">the newsroom and see,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2672">44:32</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2672" data-t="2672">see if our notes were still work. I mean, do you know Should nobody have a positioner? Are you asking me? Yes. I was saying, are you aware of any,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2680" data-t="2680">counter positions</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2682" data-t="2682">other than,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2684" data-t="2684">you know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2685" data-t="2685">people who agree with you that the pull requests, you know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2689" data-t="2689">that Luke's trying to merge should not be, should not be merged.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2693">44:53</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2693" data-t="2693">It's not gonna work. What he's trying to do is not gonna work. Yeah. I mean, so that that's kinda why. So, like, the reason that you see Luke going off and starting his own implementation is because a lot of his ideas</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2704" data-t="2704">are not getting</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2705" data-t="2705">he he's not satisfied with,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2708" data-t="2708">the reception to his ideas in the open source</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2713" data-t="2713">approval process that is collectively known as Bitcoin Core. So there's, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2718" data-t="2718">engineers</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2719">45:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2719" data-t="2719">from all over the world can contribute to Bitcoin Core. And there's, like, sort of this rough consensus review process where they all kinda get a general feeling for proposals and basically decide amongst themselves whether or not it's something that they're going to do or not going to do. And Luke is, you know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2736" data-t="2736">for one reason or another, disenfranchised that many of the things that he wants to see changed are not being changed.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2742" data-t="2742">So his solution to that is to go off and do it somewhere else.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2746" data-t="2746">But in my mind, you</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2748" data-t="2748">know, even though Luke is the guy that activated Segwit and is the reason that we have Lightning,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2753" data-t="2753">that change made it through that open source approval process.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2757">45:57</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2757" data-t="2757">The changes that he's going and implementing in knots are not making it through that open source approval process, And by my estimation are are not technically sound</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2766">46:06</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2766" data-t="2766">proposal. Resting on it. He's resting on his credentials, his Segwit credentials. He just thinks because he figured out Segwit that all these stupid,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2775" data-t="2775">core dads who are too so worried about being able to have sex, like, they should be focused on the code.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2780" data-t="2780">And, he's like, why should I care about their pull requests,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2784" data-t="2784">like, or their reviews? Like, I don't care about their feedback. I'm the guy with the best credentials here from Segway.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2789">46:29</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2789" data-t="2789">This doesn't work anymore. Yeah. But, I mean, like, this isn't the first like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2794" data-t="2794">Luke has a history</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2796" data-t="2796">of making good contributions to Bitcoin and making proposals</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2800" data-t="2800">that didn't get in and would have been terrible. Like, his proof of work algorithm changed, like, in 2015.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2806" data-t="2806">Like, that would have been a terrible thing to do. It would have bricked all of the ASIC miners, and it would have destroyed a ton of capital investment. And it would have set mining back five or ten years.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2817" data-t="2817">And that was like a it was a good thing that that idea of his, which he proposed would further decentralize mining by letting people use GPUs again, didn't get approved by the</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2828">47:08</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2828" data-t="2828">group of contributors that that are part of that review process. And I'm kind of of the belief that the same thing is happening here, that that these proposals,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2837" data-t="2837">they're not technically sound, and they're gonna lead to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2841" data-t="2841">bad outcomes,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2844" data-t="2844">most likely. But,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2846" data-t="2846">like, in the best case scenario, they're just not gonna work, and it's just gonna be unnecessary risk. Are they gonna fork? So what like, the way that I've been framing this is,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2856" data-t="2856">at present, nothing that Knots does</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2859">47:39</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2859" data-t="2859">is gonna lead to a fork.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2862" data-t="2862">A lot of the plans that they have right now will be disruptive,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2866" data-t="2866">but they won't necessarily cause, like, a consensus split. Like, you won't end up with two different versions of</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2872" data-t="2872">the Bitcoin chain and two different tokens that represent those two different chains where you have to, like, decide, okay. Which token do I keep and which one do I sell?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2882" data-t="2882">But, also,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2883" data-t="2883">nothing that they've done this far or proposed thus far is gonna have any effect other than just kind of cause disorder. So</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2891">48:11</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2891" data-t="2891">if they are really serious about</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2895" data-t="2895">what they propose to be wanting to do, then eventually, we have to get to a point where they decide to try to make a consensus change. So I think, like, what's going on now is they're really just kinda testing the waters to see how much support they really have.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2908" data-t="2908">And if there's you know, like, it continues to be a growing amount of support on that side of the aisle, then I think that it it's pretty likely that we will eventually see a fork. Yeah. Because they're just not gonna be able to affect the change that they want to see without changing the rules of how,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2923" data-t="2923">what is and is not allowed in Bitcoin.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2926">48:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2926" data-t="2926">Just like in 2017,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2928" data-t="2928">Satoshi or at least the first people that most people understood to be Satoshi at that time,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2934" data-t="2934">Craig Wright,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2935" data-t="2935">he was influential</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2937" data-t="2937">in a in a in some forking and right now we have the person here that we realize is actually Satoshi,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2944" data-t="2944">Peter Todd. Like Peter Todd is seems like will probably be a big factor, the decisions that the community ultimately makes. I mean, I don't think Peter Todd is, like, any more of a factor than,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2957">49:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2957" data-t="2957">like, in the same way that, like, Luke</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2959" data-t="2959">can't just,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2961" data-t="2961">like, get his own pet projects in without them going through the open source approval process. It's the same thing for Peter Todd. Right? Like, he has to go through the same,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2970" data-t="2970">rough consensus approval process that any other developer would for a proposal.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2976" data-t="2976">I don't think Peter Todd is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-2978" data-t="2978">special any more so than Luke. Right? And that's the thing about this is that, you know, you don't necessarily have to agree with these people's politics. You don't have to agree with their who their employer is. You don't have to even really like them.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-2992">49:52</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-2992" data-t="2992">What the value of Bitcoin Core is just the fact that there's a bunch of really smart people looking at it, and there's a bunch of really smart people scrutinizing every change to it.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3003" data-t="3003">And it it isn't so much like a like a trust the experts thing as it's like a trust the process thing. Right? Do you think core devs are influencers?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3012" data-t="3012">I think some of them are, but I think that there's very few developers.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3017" data-t="3017">A lot a lot of software people are not good communicators, first of all,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3023" data-t="3023">just because they tend to be, like, more asocial, I would say. Like, you it's just naturally attracts, like, people that would rather,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3031" data-t="3031">you know,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3032">50:32</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3032" data-t="3032">close their door and sit in a room and, like, focus on a problem than people that, like, wanna get out in front of the crowd and, like, be the center of attention. So,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3042" data-t="3042">I think that, like, right out of the gate, there's there's there's plenty of people that work on Bitcoin that, like, people have never even heard of. Though, like, you've never seen on a podcast.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3050" data-t="3050">Like, Greg Maxwell is a great example. Like, really brilliant guy. True and true cypherpunk.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3055" data-t="3055">You you're not gonna find him on a Bitcoin podcast because he just he's just not that guy.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3059">50:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3059" data-t="3059">So,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3060" data-t="3060">I mean, one of the things that I think that I've been proposing</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3063" data-t="3063">and advocating for is I I think there's this issue with,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3069" data-t="3069">the broader ecosystem of people using Bitcoin that are interested in it, the podcast listeners, the 40 HPW listeners,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3078" data-t="3078">they're so</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3081" data-t="3081">accustomed</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3082">51:22</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3082" data-t="3082">to hearing</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3084" data-t="3084">things from influencers. And I think this is why the reason one of the reasons why Luke and and Nauts has had some success in gaining traction</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3092" data-t="3092">is because mechanic at the end of the day is an influencer.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3096">51:36</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3096" data-t="3096">Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There are some developers that are influencers for sure. I don't mean to say that there are none.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3101">51:41</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3101" data-t="3101">Well, mechanic's not an influencer. He's Luke's influencer,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3104" data-t="3104">essentially. Like, he's a he's, like, a proxy,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3107" data-t="3107">spokesman</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3108">51:48</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3108" data-t="3108">for Luke's ideas. Right? He makes Luke look cool.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3111">51:51</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3111" data-t="3111">Yeah. He he makes Luke look very cool.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3117" data-t="3117">So, like, he's got a wife that likes Bitcoin and tweets about him. You know, everybody</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3122" data-t="3122">wants something like that in their life.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3125" data-t="3125">He's</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3127" data-t="3127">got</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3128" data-t="3128">some charisma, he's</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3130">52:10</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3130" data-t="3130">got some swagger, he's got kind of like an Austrian economic looking beard, he looks like he,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3136" data-t="3136">you know, would be in a history book, like he's got that swagger.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3141" data-t="3141">He's got a British accent. So, I mean, he's like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3144" data-t="3144">that's a whole psyop in itself of</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3147" data-t="3147">Americans thinking British people are smart just because they have an accent and they talk wrong.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3151">52:31</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3151" data-t="3151">Good beard.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3152">52:32</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3152" data-t="3152">So there's there's all this emphasis on funding core developers.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3158" data-t="3158">And</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3159" data-t="3159">I think there's an overemphasis.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3161" data-t="3161">I think what what the thing people have missed is this reality, which is that</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3166" data-t="3166">developers, like you said, oftentimes are not good communicators. But I think they need to be in this day and age. Well, so there's an issue for</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3175" data-t="3175">good. As part of like supporting</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3177">52:57</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3177" data-t="3177">Bitcoin Core, you know, with Core Funding, do you think that we should also be raising money to fund</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3185" data-t="3185">influencers</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3186">53:06</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3186" data-t="3186">for all the Bitcoin devs? What do you mean by we? Who is we?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3191">53:11</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3191" data-t="3191">Just</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3192" data-t="3192">people that are invested in in the process of supporting Bitcoin development, I would say. You think that they should be funding influencers?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3201" data-t="3201">Influencers</span> <span class="cue" data-t="3201">for the dev. So, like, every every notable dev</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3205" data-t="3205">dev gets their own Bitcoin mechanic. Not at all.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3209">53:29</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3209" data-t="3209">All. No. So, like, here's the thing.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3213" data-t="3213">There's a difference between</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3215" data-t="3215">so, like, to be a dev, especially to work on, like, an open source project like this, you have to be able to communicate somewhat. Right? Like but what what where the breakdown happens is that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3225" data-t="3225">a lot of devs are really, really bad at communicating to outsiders. Like, they're really, really bad at communicating to nontechnical people because they deal with technical problems. Like, the nature of their work is very, very technical. And it's really, really hard to take, like, a technical</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3239" data-t="3239">question or a technical</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3242" data-t="3242">problem or a technical solution and explain it to someone that doesn't understand</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3247">54:07</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3247" data-t="3247">the technical specifics.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3249" data-t="3249">Right?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3250" data-t="3250">They just have no context for how these things work.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3255" data-t="3255">They they it it it's like trying to explain</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3258" data-t="3258">like, it's it's it'd be really hard to, like, explain</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3262" data-t="3262">the pistons in an engine</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3264">54:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3264" data-t="3264">to, like, a five year old. Right? Because they have just no concept of how an engine works.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3269" data-t="3269">They don't know what internal combustion is. They'd so, like, they're they just you can you could explain to them what a piston is and how it works and how it creates the energy that makes the car move, but they're just gonna, like, kinda stare at you. And they might they might maybe get it, but, like, they're gonna be thinking about something else.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3287" data-t="3287">And the challenge that, like, a lot of these devs face is not necessarily communicating their ideas to each other. It's communicating their ideas to a nontechnical audience.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3296" data-t="3296">But I would go so far as to say, I'm</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3298" data-t="3298">I'm really on the,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3301" data-t="3301">I'm really on the outskirts when I say this because most people would not agree with this. But I look at Bitcoin much more as a technocracy</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3309">55:09</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3309" data-t="3309">than a democracy.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3310" data-t="3310">I don't really think that there's a ton of value in,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3314" data-t="3314">expending a ton of time and energy and resources,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3317" data-t="3317">particularly</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3318" data-t="3318">time and energy and resources of the best developers in the world in trying to make five year olds understand internal combustion engines. Right? Like, it's,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3328" data-t="3328">it at the end of the day, it doesn't matter because the the developers are gonna put in the changes that they put in. They're gonna,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3335">55:35</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3335" data-t="3335">put out the binaries,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3337" data-t="3337">and they're gonna sign the binaries. And people are gonna either download the binaries and run them, or they're not.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3344" data-t="3344">And, typically, I don't know. What what it feels like it comes down to a lot of the time, at least lately, is that decision does come whether or not you should download that binary and run it comes from, like, the advice of an influencer.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3356" data-t="3356">But I feel like a lot of this is a self correcting problem on a long enough timeline. Like, if if you have influencers</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3362" data-t="3362">that are telling people to do stupid things, it's gonna have stupid outcomes,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3366" data-t="3366">and people are gonna lose their money. Like, there's a there's a lot of history</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3370">56:10</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3370" data-t="3370">that I've seen during my time hanging out around Bitcoin</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3373" data-t="3373">where there's, like, just really dumb people or maybe they're malicious, you know, I don't know, that that don't know what they're talking about</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3380" data-t="3380">or loudly proclaiming</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3382" data-t="3382">some call to action.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3384" data-t="3384">And they managed to get a bunch of people on board to that call to action, and everybody gets wrecked. So at the end of the day, like, every individual has a certain amount of responsibility to, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3393" data-t="3393">if not, learn how all these things work, at the very least, learn how to find the right people to listen to.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3402">56:42</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3402" data-t="3402">Because, like, the average Bitcoin user isn't</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3405" data-t="3405">like, they yes. You could download Bitcoin Core from the website and install it on your computer and run it,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3411" data-t="3411">But you don't know that that code does what you think it does. You have no like, you you are just not simply not capable. You are not equipped</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3419" data-t="3419">to to even verify that that code does what you think it does.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3424" data-t="3424">You just you're basically trusting some influencers work for it more or less, or you've you've gone deep enough into the technicals to get to the point where you can at least make that verification yourself. So,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3435" data-t="3435">you know, people are gonna do what they're gonna do, and influencers are gonna influence.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3439">57:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3439" data-t="3439">And and over a long enough timeline, like, some people are gonna make the right decision, and they're gonna profit from it. And some people are gonna make the wrong decision, and they're gonna get wrecked. Well,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3447">57:27</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3447" data-t="3447">I I think there is a path to teaching five year olds about</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3451" data-t="3451">how pistons and an engine work. I mean, you're you're parents, so you're probably familiar with miss Rachel. Right?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3458">57:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3458" data-t="3458">Yeah. Can't stand that. Oh, I think she's great. Oh, not for me. You don't like miss Rachel? No. Because I don't talk to my kids like they're stupid. I talk to them like they're</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3466">57:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3466" data-t="3466">intelligent. Well, if you yeah. She's she's pretty useful to a certain age. Right?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3472" data-t="3472">So you don't you don't treat your your children like Shinobi treats</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3476">57:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3476" data-t="3476">the majority of Bigfoot. I try not to. Okay.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3479">57:59</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3479" data-t="3479">You treat your you treat your kids like Barn Miner. Barn Miner got his, like, son a graphene OS phone when he was, like, eight years old. Like, you give them the tough user experience right from the start and you let them learn. Mhmm. Yeah. You throw them make their own mistakes. You see if they survive or not. Yeah. You don't you don't see them Not at all. Right. I get what you're saying. That that there's a certain element of, like, hand holding</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3504">58:24</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3504" data-t="3504">and</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3505" data-t="3505">understanding, like, look. They're they're kids. We can we can lead them through this and help them learn. And, like, you're right. There is. Right? And that's</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3512" data-t="3512">I do that. Right? So it it's a lot of work, first of all.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3516" data-t="3516">People that understand this stuff,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3518" data-t="3518">generally speaking, they have better things to do. So, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3522" data-t="3522">especially if you're, like, a really, really good engineer and your time is worth, like,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3526">58:46</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3526" data-t="3526">in some cases, hundreds of dollars an hour, like, it</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3530" data-t="3530">it's really exhausting and kinda pointless to, like, get on Twitter and argue with the mob</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3535" data-t="3535">about some technical nuance</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3538" data-t="3538">55 steps down past whatever it is that they don't understand. Right? So it's like</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3543" data-t="3543">go ahead.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3545" data-t="3545">Yeah. You you have time after working sixty hours a week to argue about it with Hoggle Maguire. No. Yeah. It's really only out of, like, the kindness of my heart. Because I I don't wanna see people get wrecked. Like, truly, truthfully, I don't wanna see anybody,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3557">59:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3557" data-t="3557">like, lose their life savings or or end up in, like, a situation where they've gotten destroyed</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3562" data-t="3562">financially.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3563" data-t="3563">I really don't want that. So, like, that's the only reason that I ever</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3567" data-t="3567">engage on this stuff at all. But at the end of the day, like, I really do believe that Bitcoin is a technocracy, and it doesn't really matter,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3574" data-t="3574">whether or not like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3577" data-t="3577">most of the time in Bitcoin,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3579">59:39</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3579" data-t="3579">we we we sway people with rhetoric. Like, the the narratives are what win the battles. So, like, you really just have to, like, focus on what matters, and then every now and then come up with some new meme. And that's, like, the most energy efficient way.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3592">59:52</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3592" data-t="3592">Yeah. I wanna play devil's advocate just for the sake of it, not necessarily because I disagree with you.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3597" data-t="3597">I'm not gonna put a British accent on and pretend to be Piers Morgan. But,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3602" data-t="3602">I mean, isn't that, like, you know, these devs, they have better things to do.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3607" data-t="3607">The the mob's going after them on GitHub. They're going in the GitHub comments. They're telling them they shouldn't have sex.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3614" data-t="3614">I mean, wouldn't it be a good use of resources</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3617" data-t="3617">to fund influencers,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3618">1:00:18</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3618" data-t="3618">to represent them, to deal with the mob, to give them a barrier so that they could focus on Bitcoin development instead of arguing?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3626">1:00:26</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3626" data-t="3626">I mean, I think you could make the argument that the incentives are already there for that. Right? Like, I mean, they're there for that for me. Like, I want Bitcoin to succeed, so I'm not gonna go and attack the people that are, like, making sure that it works.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3638" data-t="3638">That doesn't even make sense. That's like</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3641" data-t="3641">I mean, like, that's like taking your car to a mechanic, and he tells you that you like, you need a new transmission. Are you gonna beat the guy up? Like, I mean, I he could be lying to you. Sure. Like, I don't know. Take it to another mechanic. Get a second opinion. You're gonna beat that guy up too? Like, it just doesn't make any sense to me. So I don't know. The mob does mob things.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3660">1:00:60</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3660" data-t="3660">So on this</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3661" data-t="3661">I'll I'll just let that one go.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3665" data-t="3665">So on this topic of Bitcoin being a technocracy, do you think</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3670" data-t="3670">Bitcoin Magazine</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3672" data-t="3672">is responsible</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3675" data-t="3675">largely for people thinking that Bitcoin's a democracy.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3679">1:01:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3679" data-t="3679">They have</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3680" data-t="3680">a lot of politicians speaking at their conference this year.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3684" data-t="3684">There's a huge focus on, you know, government adoption,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3689" data-t="3689">on the political process, on engaging in the political process, do you think that's confusing to people on the way that Bitcoin works?</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3698">1:01:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3698" data-t="3698">I think that that could play a role.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3701" data-t="3701">I think that it's a combination of factors. I think that it is</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3706" data-t="3706">so, like, one one of the one of the monetization</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3709" data-t="3709">strategies of, like, an influencer in this space is gonna be to try to sell people Bitcoin products.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3715" data-t="3715">And in order to sell people Bitcoin products, you have to sell them a certain narrative because there's really not a lot of Bitcoin products you can sell somebody.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3722" data-t="3722">You can sell them a node. You can sell them a hardware wallet. You can sell them stickers. You can sell them merchandise and, like, T shirts and hats.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3730">1:02:10</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3730" data-t="3730">You can sell them, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3732" data-t="3732">financial products. Right? But that's, like, we're we're running out of stuff.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3737" data-t="3737">You can sell them books. You can sell them</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3740" data-t="3740">podcast</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3741" data-t="3741">premium podcast interviews or something, I guess. I don't know.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3745" data-t="3745">You can sell them access to certain people. But, like, for a lot of podcasters, the the lowest barrier to entry for monetization</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3752">1:02:32</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3752" data-t="3752">is to sell,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3753" data-t="3753">like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3754" data-t="3754">products that are targeted at Bitcoiners. So, like, nodes,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3758" data-t="3758">hardware wallets,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3759" data-t="3759">that type of stuff. The stuff that, like, they're gonna convince you</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3762" data-t="3762">Alright. Hey. You're new to Bitcoin. The first thing you need to do, you need to get yourself a hardware wallet and a node. Right? So those are gonna be, like, the first</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3769">1:02:49</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3769" data-t="3769">big purchases that any new entrant into the space makes, and it's in the influencer's best interest to try to capture some revenue on that conversion.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3779" data-t="3779">So</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3780" data-t="3780">so the narrative has emerged. This is just my take on this matter that, hey. You</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3785" data-t="3785">random idiot that just learned about Bitcoin yesterday, you have a duty to do. You need to serve your Bitcoin country.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3792" data-t="3792">You need to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3793" data-t="3793">go to some the the go down into the show notes below and click the referral link and buy,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3800">1:03:20</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3800" data-t="3800">a Raspberry Pi with the cool shell that you will</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3804" data-t="3804">get in the mail in two weeks and plug into the wall. And that is you are now part of the bulwark that protects</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3811" data-t="3811">this nation. Right? You are now, you've been enlisted in the defense force. Congratulations. You are serving your country. And, like and then you just, like, mollycoddle and butter up that,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3821" data-t="3821">idea because it makes you money.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3824" data-t="3824">But</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3825" data-t="3825">in my opinion, that's, like,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3827">1:03:47</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3827" data-t="3827">pretty irrelevant</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3828" data-t="3828">and and pretty stupid in most cases. Like because the people plugging those things in the wall, they don't know what they actually do.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3835" data-t="3835">They don't know how to actually use them properly. They don't know what software they're actually running,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3839" data-t="3839">and some influencer was just paid to sell it to them. So,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3844" data-t="3844">to me, it's, like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3845" data-t="3845">kind of just a self reinforcing</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3847">1:04:07</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3847" data-t="3847">cycle. And then then it's also</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3850" data-t="3850">a tragedy of the commons thing, right, where it's like people wanna believe this, so they do. And</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3856" data-t="3856">it it it at the end of the day, like, it doesn't really matter that much because</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3860" data-t="3860">nothing that they're doing is really all that impactful anyway. Interesting. And I don't mean to say like, I I I'm sure that, like, a lot of the stuff that I'm saying comes off as, like, super elitist,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3870" data-t="3870">and I'm, like, gatekeeping.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3872" data-t="3872">And I'm not trying to do that at all, actually. Like, if if you wanna learn to code, if you're listening to this and you wanna learn to code, I learned to code because of Bitcoin.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3880">1:04:40</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3880" data-t="3880">I was in the military when I learned about Bitcoin, and I hated my life. And I had no skills. I mean, I had some skills, but I had, like, no employable skills, like, in the real world.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3890" data-t="3890">And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3892" data-t="3892">I just put in the work, man. And and it changed my life completely</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3897" data-t="3897">to, like, develop the skill set that that I really just learned because I had a passion for Bitcoin and just wanted to to write software because I saw the impact that Satoshi was able to have on the world,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3908" data-t="3908">through a computer screen. And I was like, I wanna I wanna be able to do that, man. Like, I wanna be able to just, like, talk to a computer</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3914" data-t="3914">and tell it what to do and, like, change stuff. Like, that's amazing.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3919">1:05:19</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3919" data-t="3919">Is it if there's anybody listening to this that wants to learn how to code, I'm not trying to gatekeep, dude. Like, I will help you. Like, send me a DM. I will help you. Many people help me. I will pass it forward</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3928" data-t="3928">gladly. It's just that I know the reality is that most people won't. Right? Like, they won't put in the work.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3935" data-t="3935">And and it's really obvious for technical people,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3938" data-t="3938">like, when</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3939" data-t="3939">when nontechnical people are bullshitting. Right? Like, this is this is my problem with a lot of the influencers is just that, like, a lot of them,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3946" data-t="3946">they've read a ton of economics books. They've listened to a ton of Bitcoin podcasts, but, like, they don't really understand</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3953">1:05:53</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3953" data-t="3953">the technical nature of a lot of this stuff, stuff, and they pretend like they do. And then you get into arguments with them, and they're, like, railing on you about this one particular thing. And it's just so clear</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3964" data-t="3964">that they have a lot of experience talking about it, but they don't know what they're talking about.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3969" data-t="3969">Like, they don't really know it. They don't actually understand it as well as they think they do. And it's just obvious to technical people. And that's what makes it obvious that they haven't, like, put in the work on that side of it. Right? Totally. It's kind of that Fred Krueger effect is what you're describing.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3984" data-t="3984">Yeah. Guy's a total idiot. Right? But, like, you if you were talking to him about, like, financial markets. Right? Like, you would you know, I feel this way about a lot of the influencers. Right? Like, they're very they're not, like, necessarily dumb people.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-3996" data-t="3996">Bitcoin is just a very</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-3998">1:06:38</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-3998" data-t="3998">broad</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4000">1:06:40</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4000" data-t="4000">spectrum Yeah. Of expertise.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4001" data-t="4001">Adam</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4003" data-t="4003">Adam Samecca is a dumb. He's just</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4006" data-t="4006">one of the only people</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4008" data-t="4008">who has the principles and the guts to hold</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4012" data-t="4012">independent stake and shake franchise owners,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4015">1:06:55</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4015" data-t="4015">accountable for,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4017" data-t="4017">being happy to accept Bitcoin and having to use a lightning network and having to have orange souls in your,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4023" data-t="4023">in your small restaurant. Gosh.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4026">1:07:06</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4026" data-t="4026">That was the most embarrassing tweet that I've seen this week. What is that? Just I don't know, man. That poor guy just trying to run a business. Like, leave him alone. Yeah. I don't know. Shinobi</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4036">1:07:16</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4036" data-t="4036">Shinobi handled it. Shinobi put him in his place, and everybody</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4041" data-t="4041">started to move on.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4043" data-t="4043">I wanted</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4045" data-t="4045">to respond</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4046" data-t="4046">to what you're saying because especially from the knot side, but this is like a an olive branch.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4053" data-t="4053">Is</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4054">1:07:34</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4054" data-t="4054">you say I I probably sound elitist,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4056" data-t="4056">and yeah. Yeah.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4058" data-t="4058">A lot of the devs and the credential engineers do,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4062" data-t="4062">or especially right now, especially in this debate have been pretty elitist, but</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4066" data-t="4066">you're not gatekeeping.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4069" data-t="4069">It, you're right that anybody can</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4071">1:07:51</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4071" data-t="4071">do this work,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4074" data-t="4074">and learn to code and contribute</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4076" data-t="4076">and navigate the politics</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4078" data-t="4078">of,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4079" data-t="4079">being an engineer in this open source</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4083" data-t="4083">community with such high stakes, has so many eyes on it. It's not just as simple as going to Matthew Crowder's,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4092">1:08:12</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4092" data-t="4092">you know, Bitcoin University paying $790</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4095" data-t="4095">ordering that node off of Amazon,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4098" data-t="4098">the Raspberry Pi, plugging it in, and, like, you are now</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4102" data-t="4102">franchised,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4105" data-t="4105">your opinion, your pull you have political</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4108" data-t="4108">rights now in this network.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4111">1:08:31</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4111" data-t="4111">That's just not how it works. Like</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4113" data-t="4113">but nobody's gatekeeping you to stop you. You're just you're being lazy and you're giving lazy arguments and you're not doing the proof of work because the stuff we're trying to explain is too difficult if you don't have credentials.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4125" data-t="4125">Sorry that we're elitist, but if you don't have credentials, you just aren't gonna understand this. This is why you have to trust journalists like us.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4133" data-t="4133">But if you did get those credentials, you know, you could be a peer</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4137">1:08:57</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4137" data-t="4137">in this debate over the future of the network. Yeah. I mean so, like, the but, like, the big difference between software and, like, a a more respectable profession like journalism is that there really aren't any credentials in software. Like, you could just start learning software, and nobody really cares</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4155" data-t="4155">if you went to college or, like, it, like, it it just it just doesn't matter. It's just, like, can you do it or can you not? And,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4163" data-t="4163">if you've ever tried to learn to code, you will learn really fast that it's just a process of, like, failure and,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4173" data-t="4173">hitting brick walls and then, like, backing up a little bit and looking around and being like, okay. I can't go this way. So which way do I go? Yeah. No. And and it's</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4183">1:09:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4183" data-t="4183">tumbling. Reminder that you're retarded every day. Yes. Remind you that you think you're so smart, but you missed this bug. You're retarded.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4190">1:09:50</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4190" data-t="4190">Yeah. Yeah. And, like, nine times out of 10, whatever</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4193" data-t="4193">you whatever is not working is something really, really stupid and simple that you did wrong.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4199" data-t="4199">So it it is definitely really humbling. And, like, you just learn that things are really complex and take a lot of work to make</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4208" data-t="4208">work. Right? Like, it it is just work. It's just a grind to to teach a computer to do anything,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4215" data-t="4215">and especially especially</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4217" data-t="4217">with, like, these really complex systems like Bitcoin. Bitcoin is such a complex system.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4223">1:10:23</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Hack</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4223" data-t="4223">There's so much that goes into it. And you're you're trying to, like, explain this nuance to people online, and you get some freaking economics influence that's, like, actually,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4231" data-t="4231">Bitcoin is money and the incentives of money assure us that and it's like, shut shut the hell up.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4238" data-t="4238">Shut the hell up. Everybody knows that. Everybody here knows that.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4242">1:10:42</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4242" data-t="4242">Macro podcasters</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4243" data-t="4243">have been taken. The l</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4245" data-t="4245">this week, Preston, and some others.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4248" data-t="4248">Hey,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4249" data-t="4249">like you said about Peter McCormick, he's a brilliant marketer, but you wouldn't like get vaccinated</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4255" data-t="4255">on his advice.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4256">1:10:56</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4256" data-t="4256">It's like Preston Piss is like, he is a great macro mind. He understands</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4262" data-t="4262">the end to</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4263" data-t="4263">money supply. And when that goes up,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4267" data-t="4267">nothing stops this train. Brilliant.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4269" data-t="4269">But I like, I don't trust Preston Pish on the thermodynamics</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4274" data-t="4274">of the protocol that is built on. I trust him</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4277">1:11:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4277" data-t="4277">in the room where people wear khakis, not the room where people wear</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4281" data-t="4281">cargo shorts.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4282">1:11:22</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4282" data-t="4282">Well, yeah. I mean, like, I don't claim to be</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4287" data-t="4287">credentialed</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4288" data-t="4288">or have a credentialed opinion. Like, I try to have an informed opinion on</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4293" data-t="4293">on these topics because they're somewhat relevant and because I'm an influencer</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4298" data-t="4298">and because as a part of being an influencer, you have to have an opinion. Right?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4303" data-t="4303">At least some way or another.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4305">1:11:45</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4305" data-t="4305">I try to try to remain neutral on this. If you wanna make money.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4309" data-t="4309">No. I'm not I'm not a credentialed,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4313" data-t="4313">software</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4314" data-t="4314">developer.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4316" data-t="4316">I mean, I've I've been trying to learn as much as I can. Like, I I learned how to,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4320" data-t="4320">put Lynn Alden's Hahn in the opera turn using Ben the carmen's bot. I mean, that was a pretty interesting thing.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4327">1:12:07</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4327" data-t="4327">But one thing I'm really good at sniffing out</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4331" data-t="4331">from years of operating</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4333" data-t="4333">as a credentialed journalist</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4335" data-t="4335">is when people are standing up</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4338" data-t="4338">and giving their uncredentialed opinions.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4340" data-t="4340">I think part of the reason why I've switched over to the communist side of things</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4346">1:12:26</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4346" data-t="4346">is because of the loudest uncredentialed opinions.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4349" data-t="4349">There's a cacophony of uncredentialed opinions like, you know, Rob mentioned Preston Pish.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4354" data-t="4354">You you've got uncredentialed,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4357" data-t="4357">founders</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4358" data-t="4358">like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4360" data-t="4360">Matthew Pellegrini.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4362">1:12:42</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4362" data-t="4362">You got,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4365" data-t="4365">just just just definitely Fractal and Crit.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4369" data-t="4369">Matt Fractal and Crit. Fractal and Crit. Matthew Crater,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4374" data-t="4374">He, he's he's he's running an uncredentialed</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4377" data-t="4377">university,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4378" data-t="4378">and he's sharing his uncredentialed opinions</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4381">1:13:01</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4381" data-t="4381">on the subject.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4383" data-t="4383">The cacophony</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4384" data-t="4384">is so loud from the Nazis</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4388" data-t="4388">that it just makes it impossible for me to really, you know,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4392" data-t="4392">wanna take what they're saying seriously.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4395" data-t="4395">And I I think I agree with,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4397">1:13:17</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4397" data-t="4397">I mean, so so you're married. Do you have any daughters?</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4401" data-t="4401">Yeah. Like,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4404" data-t="4404">do you feel comfortable</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4405" data-t="4405">allowing your wife or or your,</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4409" data-t="4409">daughter run a node and and have it get raped by the the spanners spammers? That is a question. Like, I don't. I'd I I'm not gonna let my wife I don't have any daughters, but I've got a son.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4421" data-t="4421">But I'm not gonna let</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4423">1:13:43</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4423" data-t="4423">my wife run a node and have her get raped by a hoodie.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4429">1:13:49</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4429" data-t="4429">If you if you wanna be a node runner, you have to ask yourself that question, unfortunately.</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4434">1:13:54</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Rod Palmer</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4434" data-t="4434">Yeah. And I mean, that's, like, one of the I mean, but, like, you know, that's just, like, my stance on things is, like, my wife's node is not gonna get raped. She's gonna use mine because I'm a grown man and and I can handle it. I can handle my my node getting raped. I know what I'm doing. I signed up for it.</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4452" data-t="4452">But I don't remember where it was going with that. God damn it. It was so solid. It's all about the node runners. So back in 2017,</span></span></p> + +<p class="cue-p"><a class="cue-t" href="#t-4460">1:14:20</a><span class="cue-body"><b class="cue-who">Richard Greaser</b> <span class="cue" id="t-4460" data-t="4460">it was about</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4462" data-t="4462">protecting the node runners because that meant</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4465" data-t="4465">decent protecting decentralization</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4468" data-t="4468">and they're still, they're still arguing</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4471" data-t="4471">over the node runners</span> <span class="cue" id="t-4473" data-t="4473">and</span></span></p> +