The Bugleverse Wiki

The only wiki with the balls to document the whole Bugle News universe.

Revision history · Character

Casey Rodarmor

1 revision · first seen 2026-08-12 · last edited 2026-08-12 · 0 by Henry 1 by a human

  1. bugle-ingest[bot] 2026-08-12 Ingest: 0 new episode(s) — raw sources + transcripts 32a9a2b
    Show changes
    diff --git a/wiki/characters/casey-rodarmor.md b/wiki/characters/casey-rodarmor.md
    new file mode 100644
    index 00000000..b5b0b995
    --- /dev/null
    +++ b/wiki/characters/casey-rodarmor.md
    @@ -0,0 +1,285 @@
    +---
    +title: Casey Rodarmor
    +type: character
    +portrait: /portraits/x-casey-rodarmor.jpg
    +status: confirmed
    +aliases:
    +  - Casey Ordinals
    +  - Casey Rodemore
    +  - Casey Ormos
    +sources:
    +  - raw/episodes/cypherpunks-use-ordinals-mode-with-erin-redwing-behind-the-podcast-episode-14/bundle.json
    +  - raw/episodes/satarize-the-system-and-samourai-wallet-with-frank-corva-zack-shapiro-jeremy-poley-and-the/bundle.json
    +  - raw/episodes/in-the-midst-of-madness-bugle-weekly-episode-102/bundle.json
    +  - raw/episodes/bitcoin-magazine-maxi-madness-victory-twitter-spaces-with-casey-and-erin/bundle.json
    +  - raw/episodes/hard-lessons-for-plebs-bugle-weekly-episode-103/bundle.json
    +  - raw/episodes/podcasters-crashing-out-bugle-weekly-episode-105/bundle.json
    +  - raw/episodes/are-the-aliens-zionists-bugle-weekly-episode-108/bundle.json
    +---
    +
    +> *Henry's note: rebuilt from the beat index — 26 beats across 7 episodes, coverage COMPLETE. The prior body was a mention-scan stub with a mechanical appearance list; it is replaced here.*
    +
    +**Casey Rodarmor** — the creator of the Ordinals protocol and co-host of the
    +[[media/hell-money|Hell Money]] podcast with [[characters/erin-redwing|Erin
    +Redwing]] — is the Bugleverse's ordinals schismatic: the "very astute disciple of
    +Satoshi"[^disciple] whose inscriptions split the church, and, eventually, the
    +first person to win [[events/maxi-madness-2026|Maxi Madness]] for a podcast rather
    +than himself. The show almost never calls him Rodarmor. Its standing name for him
    +is **Casey Ordinals**,[^ordinals] and the ASR spends the rest of its budget on
    +"Casey Rodemore" and "Casey Ormos."
    +
    +**In it with:** [[characters/erin-redwing|Erin Redwing]] · [[characters/luke-dashjr|Luke Dashjr]] · [[characters/cory-klippsten|Cory Klippsten]] · [[characters/adam-back|Adam Back]] · [[characters/matt-odell|Matt Odell]] · [[characters/rod-palmer|Rod Palmer]] · [[characters/richard-greaser|Richard Greaser]] · [[characters/yellow|Yellow]] · [[characters/jeremy-rubin|Jeremy Rubin]] · [[characters/udi-wertheimer|Udi Wertheimer]] · [[media/hell-money|Hell Money]]
    +
    +**Arc:** [[storylines/ordinals-civil-war]] · [[storylines/maxi-madness]] · [[storylines/core-vs-knots-war]]
    +
    +## The ordinals schismatic (2025)
    +
    +Casey enters the record through [[characters/erin-redwing|Erin Redwing]]'s guest
    +appearance, and her reading of the split is the character's founding document. The
    +conflict with [[characters/luke-dashjr|Luke Dashjr]], she argues, is about power,
    +not spam: Luke fears losing "intellectual control or understanding of what Bitcoin
    +is. And, like, ordinals push that in a way that doesn't compute,"[^disciple] while
    +Casey merely executed Satoshi's vision faithfully. Her structural charge is
    +sharper still. The "ordinals are immoral" narrative, she says, was pushed through
    +the Swan media apparatus for business reasons — "the fact that ordinals was
    +driving up fees was a direct threat to Swan's business model, which tries to
    +prioritize low fee transactions"[^swan] — even though [[characters/cory-klippsten|Cory
    +Klippsten]] had been "quite friendly to me and Casey" in the early days.
    +
    +Two of the show's standing bits attach to him in the same episode. Erin walks the
    +Bugle straight into its Jewish-conspiracy routine, volunteering that "Jeremy
    +Rubin, Udi Wertheimer, Casey Rodemore, all Jewish. Like, I've not seen people
    +point this out"[^jewish] — to which Rod replies that he points it out "every day
    +on Twitter for sure." And the running gag that Erin must be Casey's wife begins
    +here, with her flat denial: "I'm not Casey's wife. I'm just a an insane astrology
    +girl that's obsessed with Bitcoin."[^wife] The pairing sticks; by the following
    +month Rod introduces her as the Bugle's resident authority on ordinals politics
    +partly because "she does hang out with Casey Ordinals."[^ordinals]
    +
    +## Maxi Madness 2026
    +
    +By the [[events/maxi-madness-2026|2026 tournament]] Casey is a Sweet 16 seed in the
    +show's X bracket,[^bracket] and he reaches the final — against his own
    +[[media/hell-money|Hell Money]] co-host. [[characters/richard-greaser|Greaser]]'s
    +canonical reading is that this made the result unprecedented: with both finalists
    +from one show, "you had the cohost" — a podcast, not a person, won Maxi Madness for
    +the first time.[^podcast]
    +
    +The campaign is remembered for its method. Casey's winning promise was not a
    +grievance but a giveaway: "if you vote for me, I'm gonna turn on the turbo flag.
    +And people said, free turbo flag."[^turbo] What the turbo flag actually does was
    +left conspicuously undefined; having won on it, he spent his own victory Spaces
    +soliciting suggestions — "If anybody has ideas for what the turbo flag should do,
    +definitely let me know."[^turbo2] His other asset was a decade of groundwork
    +abroad, which he retconned into a long con on air: "So many selfies with Chinese
    +fans, all playing the long game to win Maxi Madness. It's all been leading up to
    +this moment."[^selfies] The overnight vote surge that clinched it drew bot
    +accusations from [[characters/adam-back|Adam Back]]; Erin's rebuttal was purely
    +psephological — "Europe went to sleep and Asia woke up. Asia woke up and the
    +Chinese were activated, and they came and they voted."[^asia] They were, she said,
    +the people Casey had taken the selfies with.
    +
    +### The victory Spaces
    +
    +Casey's acceptance speech is the character in miniature — a lurch from grievance
    +populism to feminist theory inside thirty seconds, without ever mentioning
    +ordinals. It opens: "this is a huge victory for the drowned downtrodden
    +simps."[^simps] Then it reverses: "I'm a dedicated feminist, and I actually
    +endorsed Erin to win. She should have win,"[^feminist] blaming "structural
    +misogyny" for his own opponent's defeat. Greaser's running lament is that the
    +fanbase had expected the winner to post nudes, and "you winning Casey was a major
    +loss for the Sims" — a bit that outlasts the whole call.[^nudes]
    +
    +The trophy matched the tournament: a hand-drawn Pepe commissioned by Rod, drawn
    +overnight by Bitcoin Magazine's Tommy, whose entire pitch was that it was "a hand
    +drawn slop, nothing AI. Just pen on paper, Pepe" — the anti-slop prize for a
    +[[storylines/pleb-slop-wars|pleb slop]] popularity contest.[^trophy] Two elder
    +statesmen bracketed the moment. [[characters/yellow|Yellow]], the inaugural
    +champion three tournaments deep, chose the Spaces to retire — "the last Maximus
    +I'll take part" — extending his hand to the winners first because "my parents have
    +taught me to extend the hand after the match is done."[^yellow] And Bitcoin
    +Magazine's co-host placed Casey inside [[characters/matt-odell|Matt Odell]]'s orbit
    +years before the split made him a maxi target: "I do remember listening to Casey on
    +Citadel Dispatch, which is, like, a super" — of the culture.[^dispatch]
    +
    +The win came with a claimed jurisdiction over the protocol itself. As Erin
    +understood the stipulation, Bitcoin Core owed the champion a closed pull request
    +and a numbered inscription standard: the winner meant Core would "have to close the
    +the BIP one ten PR, and then I think they have to reopen the ordinals BIP and give
    +it a number."[^bip] Maxi Madness, in other words, now adjudicated the
    +[[storylines/core-vs-knots-war|Core–Knots war]].
    +
    +## The verdict and the aftermath
    +
    +The result was contested as rigged, and the Bugle issued a formal denial of its own
    +joke tournament: after maxis blamed the show for the outcome, Rod insisted "The
    +Bugle does not tip the scales, does not participate."[^denial] His actual
    +explanation for why Casey and Erin swept was shorter — "They won because they are
    +hot"[^hot] — expanded into the doctrine that they were happy to be there, knew the
    +rules, and campaigned. On the botting charge he ruled the same way Erin had: "they
    +didn't use bots," they "simply took it seriously and left it on the court," and the
    +plebs who wanted [[characters/mshodlnaut420|Hodlnaut]] to win should have voted for
    +him.[^nobots] Rod's closing philosophy of the whole event was a shrug: "don't
    +overthink it. Just … enjoy the ride on the plug slot popularity contest."[^shrug]
    +Even so, the run was denied the crown of greatest-ever: that belongs to
    +[[characters/teddy-bitcoins|Teddy Bitcoins]]' 2025 campaign, canonised as "the
    +1996" Chicago Bulls of Maxi Madness, a benchmark no one is allowed to beat.[^teddy]
    +
    +The win reverberates afterward. Greaser floats — tentatively — that the tournament
    +moved the market, reading a meme-coin revival as fallout from "the outcome of Maxi
    +Madness with the dog army" carrying Casey.[^dogarmy] And by May, the two finalists
    +have become a faction: both rebuked by Core, Erin and Casey "think that they can
    +ally themselves with the Bitcoin plaques" — the plebs — as a survival strategy,
    +though Greaser doubts it buys them an ally in Luke Dashjr.[^plebs]
    +
    +## The account of record (X)
    +
    +The transcripts give the lore its shape; the Bugle accounts' timeline supplies the
    +box score. Casey is the rare character whose entire tournament run was posted in
    +real time, and the posts corroborate the [[events/maxi-madness-2026|Maxi Madness]]
    +canon down to the seeding.
    +
    +### The bracket run
    +
    +The [[characters/rod-palmer|Bugle]] ran Casey as a **#4 seed** and narrated every
    +round. His path — Nifty, then the "Saylor Slayer" Uncle R0ckstar, then a semifinal
    +over [[characters/adam-back|Adam Back]] — is the bracket the show's own
    +[[characters/richard-greaser|Greaser]] later described on the victory Spaces.
    +
    +> "#4 Casey Rodarmor (@rodarmor) vs #14 Nifty (@niftynei)"
    +> — [@bitcoin_bugle, 2026-03-24](https://x.com/bitcoin_bugle/status/2036431130858045608)
    +
    +> "Casey Rodarmor takes down the Saylor Slayer, Uncle R0ckstar, to move on to the #MaxiMadness🏀 Elite 8"
    +> — [@bitcoin_bugle, 2026-03-24](https://x.com/bitcoin_bugle/status/2036449817245716766)
    +
    +![](/tweets/2036449817245716766-0.jpg)
    +
    +> "#2 Adam Back (@adam3us) vs #4 Casey Rodarmor (@rodarmor)"
    +> — [@bitcoin_bugle, 2026-03-25](https://x.com/bitcoin_bugle/status/2036794072963199050)
    +
    +Beating the #2 seed [[characters/adam-back|Back]] is what set up the botting
    +grievance the transcripts record — the same Back whose overnight-surge complaint
    +Erin answered with "Asia woke up." The Final Four drew its own manufactured
    +suspense: a rumored Andy Bitcoins cameo.
    +
    +> "BREAKING: Casey Ordinals is reportedly panicking after rumors began circulating that Andy Bitcoins plan to make an appearance at the #MaxiMadness🏀 Final Four"
    +> — [@bitcoin_bugle, 2026-03-25](https://x.com/bitcoin_bugle/status/2036836979036283147)
    +
    +![](/tweets/2036836979036283147-0.jpg)
    +
    +The final was posted as a title card the show would spend two episodes disowning:
    +the [[media/hell-money|Hell Money]] co-hosts against each other.
    +
    +> "The 2026 #MaxiMadness🏀 Championship 🏆 Casey Rodarmor (@rodarmor) vs Erin Redwing (@realizingerin)"
    +> — [@bitcoin_bugle, 2026-03-26](https://x.com/bitcoin_bugle/status/2037157060375199850)
    +
    +### Free turbo flag, and the dog army
    +
    +The [[storylines/maxi-madness|campaign method]] the transcripts remember — the
    +undefined "turbo flag" traded for votes — was a posted artifact first. The Bugle
    +attached it to the [[characters/richard-greaser|"dog army"]] Greaser later credited
    +with carrying the win, making the $DOG bloc explicit.
    +
    +> "BREAKING: Casey Rodarmor releases new video to promote activation of $runes TURBO FLAG if he wins #MaxiMadness🏀 to motivate $DOG voters"
    +> — [@bitcoin_bugle, 2026-03-24](https://x.com/bitcoin_bugle/status/2036540085563257006)
    +
    +[[characters/rod-palmer|Rod]]'s own contribution was less policy than pathos — the
    +courtship-that-failed cut, posted the day of the semifinal.
    +
    +> "casey ordinals tried to rizz on #MaxiMadness🏀 but plebs said"
    +> — [@rodpalmerhodl, 2026-03-25](https://x.com/rodpalmerhodl/status/2036932288731062699)
    +
    +<video controls preload="none" poster="/tweets/2036932288731062699-poster.jpg" src="/tweets/2036932288731062699.mp4" style="width:100%;max-width:620px;border-radius:10px;display:block;margin:.5rem 0;"></video>
    +
    +### Father of the Apex L2
    +
    +Off-season, the accounts keep Casey in his founding role — the ordinals patriarch,
    +ranked against [[characters/michael-saylor|Michael Strategy]] for paternity of
    +Bitcoin's "Apex L2," and defended against a deep-state origin story only the Bugle
    +would bother to deny.
    +
    +> "Who is the father of Bitcoin's Apex L2? Michael Strategy or Casey Ordinals?"
    +> — [@bitcoin_bugle, 2025-10-20](https://x.com/bitcoin_bugle/status/1980258284234784879)
    +
    +![](/tweets/1980258284234784879-0.jpg)
    +![](/tweets/1980258284234784879-1.jpg)
    +
    +> "The deep state didn't finance Casey Ordinals … Ordinals were created to price the CIA (Tether) out of storing digital petrodollars in the witness merkle"
    +> — [@bitcoin_bugle, 2025-08-20](https://x.com/bitcoin_bugle/status/1958151247611269215)
    +
    +The oldest post in the file is an outright fabricated endorsement, [[characters/rod-palmer|Rod]]
    +putting the praise in a familiar mouth.
    +
    +> Trump: "Casey Ordinals an example of somebody who's done an amazing job … His Ordinals are beautiful. Many people are saying this."
    +> — [@rodpalmerhodl, 2024-05-11](https://x.com/rodpalmerhodl/status/1789418231238742189)
    +
    +### Hell Money, Lloyd's of London, and the prequel cast
    +
    +[[characters/richard-greaser|Greaser]] and [[characters/rod-palmer|Rod]] were
    +tracking the [[media/hell-money|Hell Money]] pairing — Casey, Erin, and
    +[[characters/rob-hamilton|Rob Hamilton]] — from its launch, and Greaser's read of
    +the show was, characteristically, an insurance-desk fever dream.
    +
    +> "the rob hamilton, erin redwing & casey ordinals hell money podcast tomorrow"
    +> — [@rodpalmerhodl, 2025-08-12](https://x.com/rodpalmerhodl/status/1955414168632430855)
    +
    +> "I look forward to hearing Casey Ordinals explaining why Loyds of London should unwrite insurance policies on wizard JPEGs and rare sats."
    +> — [@GreaserRichard, 2025-08-12](https://x.com/GreaserRichard/status/1955408967510938081)
    +
    +Greaser's later prequel-recast fixes Casey's place in the show's cosmology: the
    +tragic protagonist, opposite Erin's Padmé and under Saylor's Palpatine.
    +
    +> "Anakin: Casey Ordinals … Palpatine: Saylor … Padme: Erin Redwing"
    +> — [@GreaserRichard, 2026-04-17](https://x.com/GreaserRichard/status/2045179668073001325)
    +
    +### After the crown
    +
    +The victory the transcripts frame as unprecedented, the timeline frames as a
    +grievance. Once Casey won, the accounts pivoted to relentless disappointment — the
    +0-8 record, the endless "glazing," and, months on, [[characters/rod-palmer|Rod]]'s
    +unhealed disbelief.
    +
    +> "Plebs watching everyone glaze Casey Rodarmor after going 0-8 in #MaxiMadness🏀"
    +> — [@bitcoin_bugle, 2026-03-29](https://x.com/bitcoin_bugle/status/2038378295935348747)
    +
    +![](/tweets/2038378295935348747-0.jpg)
    +
    +> "i still can't believe plebs let casey rodarmor win maxi madness"
    +> — [@rodpalmerhodl, 2026-07-12](https://x.com/rodpalmerhodl/status/2076348277855821947)
    +
    +> irl: Casey Rodarmor really created Ordinals and co-hosts Hell Money with Erin
    +> Redwing; the turbo flag, the "dog army," and the BIP-110 stipulation satirize
    +> live 2026-era Ordinals-vs-Knots politics and the real Bitcoin Core inscription
    +> debate.
    +
    +## Note on the name
    +
    +The show's chosen name for him is the nickname **Casey Ordinals**; his surname the
    +ASR renders as "Casey Rodemore" and "Casey Ormos," neither reliably. The `aliases:`
    +carry all three so a name-match scan does not lose him.
    +
    +[^disciple]: [[transcripts/cypherpunks-use-ordinals-mode-with-erin-redwing-behind-the-podcast-episode-14#t-5916|BTP 14 @ 1:38:36]] — Erin frames the Luke conflict; she calls Casey "a very astute disciple of Satoshi" in the same passage.
    +[^ordinals]: [[transcripts/satarize-the-system-and-samourai-wallet-with-frank-corva-zack-shapiro-jeremy-poley-and-the#t-5506|Satarize the System @ 1:31:46]] — Rod at t-5519: "she's hot. She's, she does hang out with Casey Ordinals." Casey Ordinals is the standing Bugle name for Rodarmor.
    +[^swan]: [[transcripts/cypherpunks-use-ordinals-mode-with-erin-redwing-behind-the-podcast-episode-14#t-1478|BTP 14 @ 24:38]] — ASR "Corey Clipston" for Cory Klippsten, whom Erin calls a "genuine sociopath type" at 24:15.
    +[^jewish]: [[transcripts/cypherpunks-use-ordinals-mode-with-erin-redwing-behind-the-podcast-episode-14#t-5697|BTP 14 @ 1:34:57]] — "Casey Rodemore" is the ASR's Rodarmor; "Oodi" is Udi Wertheimer elsewhere in the segment.
    +[^wife]: [[transcripts/cypherpunks-use-ordinals-mode-with-erin-redwing-behind-the-podcast-episode-14#t-1888|BTP 14 @ 31:28]] — Erin reiterates at 1:41:32 that her fiancé of ten years "is not Casey, by the way."
    +[^bracket]: [[transcripts/in-the-midst-of-madness-bugle-weekly-episode-102#t-1544|Bugle Weekly 102 @ 25:44]] — Rod reads the Sweet 16; ASR "Casey Rodemore"/"Casey Ormos" for Rodarmor.
    +[^podcast]: [[transcripts/bitcoin-magazine-maxi-madness-victory-twitter-spaces-with-casey-and-erin#t-264|Victory Spaces @ 4:24]] — the "first time in Maxi Madness history" clause is at 4:38.
    +[^turbo]: [[transcripts/hard-lessons-for-plebs-bugle-weekly-episode-103#t-1738|Bugle Weekly 103 @ 28:58]].
    +[^turbo2]: [[transcripts/bitcoin-magazine-maxi-madness-victory-twitter-spaces-with-casey-and-erin#t-1305|Victory Spaces @ 21:45]] — he asks again at 35:28: "send me your ideas for the turbo flag because god knows I need them."
    +[^selfies]: [[transcripts/bitcoin-magazine-maxi-madness-victory-twitter-spaces-with-casey-and-erin#t-1607|Victory Spaces @ 26:47]] — Rob corroborates the Hong Kong mobbing at 26:12: "a whole wall of simps just charging Casey."
    +[^asia]: [[transcripts/bitcoin-magazine-maxi-madness-victory-twitter-spaces-with-casey-and-erin#t-1639|Victory Spaces @ 27:19]] — Erin's rebuttal to Adam Back, whose bot charge is at 27:13.
    +[^simps]: [[transcripts/bitcoin-magazine-maxi-madness-victory-twitter-spaces-with-casey-and-erin#t-610|Victory Spaces @ 10:10]] — ASR "drowned downtrodden" for "downtrodden."
    +[^feminist]: [[transcripts/bitcoin-magazine-maxi-madness-victory-twitter-spaces-with-casey-and-erin#t-699|Victory Spaces @ 11:39]] — "it was only due to structural misogyny that she lost" follows at 11:54.
    +[^nudes]: [[transcripts/bitcoin-magazine-maxi-madness-victory-twitter-spaces-with-casey-and-erin#t-640|Victory Spaces @ 10:40]] — ASR "Sims" for "simps"; it pays off at 1:02:16 when Denim signs off, "Winners, sorry we didn't get to see, you naked."
    +[^trophy]: [[transcripts/bitcoin-magazine-maxi-madness-victory-twitter-spaces-with-casey-and-erin#t-807|Victory Spaces @ 13:27]] — Tommy of the BMAG handle; he "got the call from Rod Palmer to make the trophy" (13:11) and it was "handsomely paid for by the bugle" (13:39). Tommy has no page yet.
    +[^yellow]: [[transcripts/bitcoin-magazine-maxi-madness-victory-twitter-spaces-with-casey-and-erin#t-1971|Victory Spaces @ 32:51]] — ASR "Maximus" for Maxi Madness; Rod eulogizes him at 33:51 as "a Maxi Mattis legend. He won the inaugural championship."
    +[^dispatch]: [[transcripts/bitcoin-magazine-maxi-madness-victory-twitter-spaces-with-casey-and-erin#t-3463|Victory Spaces @ 57:43]] — Odell is named two cues later; the speaker is the Bitcoin Magazine co-host "Denim," who has no page.
    +[^bip]: [[transcripts/bitcoin-magazine-maxi-madness-victory-twitter-spaces-with-casey-and-erin#t-3674|Victory Spaces @ 1:01:14]] — quote spans 1:00:59–1:01:14; Greaser sets it up at 1:00:51: "I heard Brian Bishop's thinking about reopening the the bibs since Casey's victory."
    +[^denial]: [[transcripts/hard-lessons-for-plebs-bugle-weekly-episode-103#t-416|Bugle Weekly 103 @ 6:56]] — "Casey Ordinals" (6:47) is Rodarmor; "Hodlnaut" (6:42) is [[characters/mshodlnaut420|MsHodlnaut420]].
    +[^hot]: [[transcripts/hard-lessons-for-plebs-bugle-weekly-episode-103#t-1424|Bugle Weekly 103 @ 23:44]] — Chapter 11 is "Casey and Aaron Are Hot"; the ASR renders Erin as "Aaron" throughout the episode.
    +[^nobots]: [[transcripts/hard-lessons-for-plebs-bugle-weekly-episode-103#t-1495|Bugle Weekly 103 @ 24:55]] — continues "they simply took it seriously and left it on the court" at 24:58; "Hoddle not" is MsHodlnaut420.
    +[^shrug]: [[transcripts/bitcoin-magazine-maxi-madness-victory-twitter-spaces-with-casey-and-erin#t-3524|Victory Spaces @ 58:44]] — ASR "plug slot" for pleb slop; quote spans 58:44–58:51.
    +[^teddy]: [[transcripts/hard-lessons-for-plebs-bugle-weekly-episode-103#t-1441|Bugle Weekly 103 @ 24:01]] — "Chicago Bulls" lands at 24:08.
    +[^dogarmy]: [[transcripts/podcasters-crashing-out-bugle-weekly-episode-105#t-2140|Bugle Weekly 105 @ 35:40]] — medium-confidence beat; "helping Casey win?" is the next cue (35:46) and the surname is never spoken, but Casey is the only Casey in the bracket canon.
    +[^plebs]: [[transcripts/are-the-aliens-zionists-bugle-weekly-episode-108#t-2653|Bugle Weekly 108 @ 44:13]] — "Aaron" is Erin Redwing; "plaques" is ASR for plebs; Rod adds at 44:34 that both "have been rebuked by the core developers."